Berkshire: Unitary Authorities (Hansard, 17 June 1996)

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Earl Ferrers)
Yes, my Lords. We intend to lay an order tomorrow conferring unitary powers on the six Berkshire district councils. The Royal County of Berkshire will remain. The first bids from the authorities concerned suggest that transitional costs may be between £16 million and £20 million in the year preceding reorganisation.

§ Lord Bancroft
My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl for that uncharacteristically disobliging reply. Is he aware that the decision to dismember, to the point of destruction, the Royal County will cause dismay and strong opposition, especially in this Chamber, when the separate order and its accompanying O'Hagan amendment come to be debated? As to extra costs, would he care to comment on the latest extra costs which are transitional costs of £6 million a year in years four to 10 and continuing extra costs of between £18 million and £20 million a year, making a total of £25 million a year, or an additional £90 a year for the average council tax payer in Berkshire?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord should have found it a disobliging Answer. I know that he is concerned about what happens in Berkshire, as indeed are a number of noble Lords. However, he will recall that it was the local government reorganisation commission which discussed whether there should be a change or whether there should be unitary authorities. It went out to consultation on the basis of four bodies, and Berkshire County Council at that time supported that proposal. Five bodies were then recommended and for reasons of which the noble Lord will be aware my right honourable friend decided on six. The noble Lord will also know that that proposal has had the widespread support of all Members of Parliament, with the possible exception of one Liberal Democrat who decided to support his own district of Newbury. I suggest it would be quite wrong that that should have been overturned by my right honourable friend, who has taken the advice of an independent review and also of local Members of Parliament.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this matter was most carefully considered in great detail and that the decision arrived at is accepted by most people in the area as being sensible?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for making that point. When there is a change, some people become upset. However, a number of people have accepted the change that is proposed. All 8 those in another place who are representatives of the people have also accepted it. The best course is to try to make it work.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, will the noble Earl confirm that there is no intention to abolish the Royal County of Berkshire; the intention is to abolish the county council of Berkshire as recommended by the Local Government Commission? Is he aware, in so far as the costs are concerned, that the county council has arrived at these without discussion and has refused any discussion at all with the six district authorities? Indeed, the compilation is such as to make it extremely suspect and unreliable.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord was quite right to refer to his first point. I meant to make that point to the noble Lord, Lord Bancroft, but I failed to do so. The Royal County of Berkshire remains; it is only the county council which is being abolished.
The noble Lord also referred to costs as indeed did the noble Lord, Lord Bancroft. The only figures which are available—and they are reasonable—are the bids which have been submitted on the basis of the changes being made during next year. In fact the changes will be made in the year thereafter and new bids will have to be submitted. It will be a matter for the new unitary authorities to make savings where they can.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that my appreciation of his right honourable friend's courtesy in receiving a deputation on this subject towards the end of last week has now been considerably watered down by this decision? Is he further aware that to reserve for Berkshire alone, among the 36 shire counties, the fate of total dismemberment will come as a sharp and unpleasant shock to the traditional supporters of this Government within the county of Berkshire?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I know that my noble friend met my right honourable friend, who listened carefully to what he and those in his delegation said. However, one has to make a decision. My noble friend says that many people will not like the decision—I accept that some people will not like it—but plenty of people will like it. I repeat that the independent Local Government Commission has made its recommendations. All the Members of another place agreed with that decision. My noble friend now asks my right honourable friend to overturn the decision. If it had been a Labour area and the independent commission had suggested an all-unitary structure and all the Labour Members of Parliament agreed with it, if my right honourable friend then decided to overturn the decision, one can imagine the hoo-ha that would arise.

§ Lord Palmer
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that in a recent MORI poll 73 per cent. of the population of the Royal County of Berkshire were against these proposals?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I suggest that MORI polls are dangerous to quote. I can quote some MORI polls 9 which give another view. But we should then be bandying figures around. I think that we should leave it at that.

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, will the Minister confirm to the House that for three years, up until last year, Berkshire County Council campaigned for its own abolition? Will the Minister also confirm that in its evidence to the Local Government Commission review Berkshire County Council submitted that, All councils, including the county council, recognise that unitary authorities are the best way of delivering services in Berkshire".

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, it gives me the most enormous pleasure to agree with the noble Baroness—which does not often occur. But she is absolutely right. The Berkshire County Council campaigned for unitary status. For some funny reason it changed its mind. It has now whipped up a quite enthusiastic campaign against such status. Why it changed its mind, I do not know, and I doubt whether the noble Baroness knows.

§ Lord Renwick
My Lords, perhaps I may join the campaign to support Berkshire County Council. Will the effectiveness of the county council's social service responsibilities benefit from the change, especially as regards the control of child abuse, the ability to organise adoption and looking after those with special educational needs and, dare I mention it, dyslexia?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, we expect the new unitary authorities to work as independent organisations. However, there will be times when unitary authorities will have to work together. My noble friend has given some examples. I refer also to schools for children who are backward. On such occasions the district councils may have to work together. I have no reason to believe that they will not.