Licensing (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill (Hansard, 10 July 1996)

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scottish Office (The Earl of Lindsay)
My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
This Bill has continually enjoyed all-party support at every stage of its parliamentary passage. It has also, I believe, benefited from being dealt with under the Scotland and the Union procedures which gave us several opportunities to consider and debate this Scottish Bill in Scotland.
365 This process began, following introduction in another place, with Second Reading before a meeting of the Scottish Grand Committee in Glasgow. A Special Standing Committee was then set up and heard evidence in relation to the proposals in Clause 1 of the Bill at special hearings held in Stirling, Ayr and Inverness.
These sessions enabled the committee to consider the views of a wide variety of bodies and individuals with an interest in our proposals and enabled us subsequently to bring forward amendments in another place which we believe significantly improve the way our policy will be delivered.
The Bill has also been the subject of further intense scrutiny by your Lordships and I am grateful to the noble Lords who contributed so helpfully and constructively to those considerations.
I believe that we now have measures which will contribute significantly to the aim we all share of protecting our children from the evils of drug misuse.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his kindness and help during the passage of the Bill. I apologise for the fact that my noble friend Lord Macaulay is not able to be here today. He put two questions at an earlier stage of the Bill which the Minister promised to consider. He had the courtesy to write both to my noble friend and to myself. The issues with which we were concerned had been raised by local authorities. They related partly to interpretation but they also had substance.
There was the question, first, of licensing boards acting reasonably when implementing certain requirements in Clause I and, secondly, whether there should be an express provision in the Bill for a licence holder's representative to attend in his place at a board meeting called to consider whether the relevant liquor licence should be varied. In his letter to my noble friend of 4th July the Minister said that he noted from the Official Report that my noble friend suggested that: Clause 1 as presently drafted gives an absolute power to the licensing board with no provision for review. That is why you feel that a requirement should be placed on the licensing board to act reasonably when determining whether an event would be such that it was likely there would be a contravention of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971". I should like the Minister to put the contents of that letter on the record for the sake of the committee and also of the people who are most anxious that we raise those matters, even at this late stage. Other than that, I am happy with the way the Bill has gone so far.

§ The Earl of Mar and Kellie
My Lords, I too am pleased that we have before us what I believe will be realistic legislation to deal with the problems caused by some recreational drugs and that we have a framework here for health and safety measures to deal with those problems.
366 At an earlier stage I mentioned the situation of the local authorities. There are 32 licensing authorities in Scotland and I believe that they will require considerable ingenuity in working out what the health and safety measures will be. The ingenuity will be required on the part of the applicants and the board members and their advisers.
The licensing activity was the responsibility of the district councils in the past and therefore the new authorities which were based on district councils will perhaps find the task even easier. I mentioned earlier the situation in Clackmannanshire. I am happy to tell the noble Earl that since the Clackmannanshire council used to be a district council, it will have adequate experience, even if it lacks members to deal with the problem of licensing.
In passing, I wonder when there will be a review of how all 32 licensing authorities are getting on. There is the suggestion that the Secretary of State will come forward with prescribed conditions, and perhaps a time will be set for that review.
The noble Earl was kind enough to write to me because I have raised the issue on all recreational drugs, rather than just illegal drugs. In his letter of 4th July he said that: The White Paper [Crime and Punishment] reports the Government's intention to fund a number of initiatives aimed at stimulating community action including measures to curb the supply of alcohol to underage drinkers". I wish to reinforce the point that community action means not just action by the police and publicans. It also means the example and attitude set by parents, teachers and all adults. That is what "community" means.
The noble Earl went on to say: It is also our intention to legislate to give police the power to confiscate alcoholic drink from underage drinkers in public places". That strikes me as a surprisingly realistic approach. I am surprised that it is not already on the statute book. It should be. The letter continues: The drinks industry also has an important role to play and the White Paper notes that the industry has adopted a new code that will deter firms from targeting young drinkers. In support, there is to be an increase from October in the duty on cider which is…popular with young people because it is relatively cheap to buy". I agree with that approach. However, I hope that the noble Earl will include MD 20/20—or "Mad Dog 20/20"—and Buckfast as two other drinks which are of more interest to young people than perhaps they ought to be. The Bill is a good framework within which to deal with what is definitely a problem.

§ Viscount Thurso
My Lords, at Second Reading I gave the Bill a very warm welcome. However, I had certain reservations. I reiterate that welcome. It is a measure that will generally take care of the problems it was intended to deal with. The particular concerns I raised were addressed by the Minister. I am most grateful to the noble Earl for having answered all my questions. The question that remained was that of reasonableness, as referred to in the amendment tabled at Committee stage by the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay of Bragar.
367 I am very grateful to the Minister for his letter to me in which he stated: we will be issuing comprehensive guidelines to local authorities aimed at ensuring that licensing boards implement the provisions in Clause 1 of the Bill reasonably and effectively". I was very grateful for that, and I accept it.
At Second Reading I also mentioned my belief that the time was approaching for a general revision of licensing legislation. Today, by a fortuitous coincidence, the British Hospitality Association launched what it is pleased to call its "election manifesto". I hope that does not mean that hoteliers will be standing for Parliament everywhere! I believe it relates to provisions that the British Hospitality Association would expect from this Government or any future government. That document calls for a review and revision of licensing law in England, Scotland and Wales. I very much hope that the House will have the possibility of debating that subject on a future occasion.

The Earl of Lindsay
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, and the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, for the general welcome they have continued to give to the Bill. The rest of the House will be grateful for the expert scrutiny that they have applied from their various backgrounds as the Bill has passed through its various stages. I also include my noble friend Lord Balfour and the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay, who I regret is not in his place, for the help that they gave us.
The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, was quite rightly concerned about the exact definition of "community action". I reiterate the statement in my letter. We see the action against under-age drinking and abuse by those who are under age of all products with which they should not be in contact as very important, and also as involving all players. It is not just a matter for central government, local authorities or the voluntary sector; it involves communities and the industry itself. As the noble Earl so rightly pointed out, it involves all of us as adults. We must help as well.
Whether Mad Dog 20/20, Buckfast and other refreshments which I have yet to experience should be included is a matter that I shall pass on to my colleagues. The Committee was certainly grateful when the noble Earl gave an expert lecture on recreational drugs. We all learnt a lot that night.
The noble Viscount asked about the review and revision of the whole licensing framework. The House would benefit if, through the usual channels, he brought this matter to the Floor of the House for general debate, especially given his background in this field.
I turn to the two main points set out by the noble Lord, Lord Carmichael, and touched upon today and at earlier stages by the noble Viscount and the noble Earl. The first involves the licensing board acting reasonably. As I stated in my letter, it is without doubt incumbent upon a licensing board, or indeed any other public body, to act reasonably in the discharge of any function given under legislation. If a licensing board unreasonably discharges the functions which the Bill will confer then that is a matter which can be subject to judicial challenge", 368 either under Section 39 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976 or by way of judicial review. We also recognise that one can perhaps prevent such actions by issuing sensible guidance. As the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, quoted from my letter to him, we will be issuing comprehensive guidelines to local authorities aimed at ensuring that licensing boards implement the provisions in Clause 1 of the Bill reasonably and effectively". The last point relates to the ability of a licence holder to be represented at a hearing before a licensing board. I remind the noble Lord that there are other provisions in the 1976 Act relating to the holding of hearings by the licensing board. As I stated, An example, which I gave in Committee, is section 31 of the Act which provides for the holding of a hearing when the licensing board is considering whether to suspend a licence following receipt of a complaint. That provision says that the board shall not suspend the licence without hearing the licence holder. It does not expressly say that the holder can, for that purpose, be represented. However, it is a long established practice that a holder can be represented for that purpose". It is our intention that that long-established practice should continue. Guidance on that point could always be issued should it appear to be threatened.
I hope that, with the further assurances that I have been able to give tonight, noble Lords will continue to support the Bill as it goes forward to enactment.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his explanations. I hope he will agree that it was rather important to have those points stated on the Floor of the House so that the House knows exactly what was intended. While it was very kind of him to write to certain Members, the whole House should know about these matters. I am grateful to him for making the effort to explain to the House exactly what was meant by the comments in his letter.

The Earl of Courtown
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure 8.15 p.m.