HL Deb 16 December 1996 vol 576 cc1267-9

2.43 p.m.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they believe that war in Europe has been, and is more likely to be, avoided under the federal model of Europe proposed by Chancellor Kohl or under the partnership of nations proposed by Her Majesty's Government.

Lord Chesham

My Lords, the greatest achievement of the European Union has been to replace a habit of conflict which caused two world wars this century with a habit of co-operation. We believe that that achievement is most likely to be consolidated by maintaining the EU as a partnership of nations. Chancellor Kohl has explicitly rejected a "centralised European state".

Lord Pearson of Rannoch

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. However, I should have thought that it was NATO, and not the European Communities, which preserved the post-war peace in north-western Europe. Be that as it may, does my noble friend accept that the German Chancellor said on 2nd February of this year: European integration is in reality a question of war and peace in the 21st century"? As he and others seem determined to pursue that integration with such unhealthy haste, would the Government care to put a question to Chancellor Kohl? Would they ask the Chancellor when a modern, bourgeois nation such as the modern Germany last caused a war?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, perhaps I may quote to my noble friend: We want unity and diversity. We do not want a centralised European state that subsumes regional, national and cultural traditions or dismisses historical experience". That is not John Major speaking; it is Chancellor Kohl in his speech to the Bundestag on 27th May 1994. We believe in a Europe that respects political and cultural diversity, which concentrates singlemindedly only on what needs to be done at a European level, and doing it well, and which does not interfere when it is not needed.

Perhaps I may add this. I feel that further discussion on this Question could pre-empt the Statement that is to be made this afternoon, when my noble friend the Leader of the House is to make a Statement. I believe that it would be inappropriate if I were to answer further questions.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that it has hitherto been the received wisdom emanating from Her Majesty's Government that the peace of Europe has been maintained by our possession of the nuclear deterrent?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, yes.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the more that European countries work together on economic, social, political and military grounds, the less likely is war to break out between them?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, yes.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, this is a proper Question which has been answered. It deserves some further supplementary questions. Do Her Majesty's Government support the view of Herr Kohl, Herr Lammers and Herr Brok that the nation state is completely outdated and should be replaced by a country called Europe?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, no.

Lord Monson

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that to force distinct and separate nations into a federation or superstate would increase rather than diminish the chances of eventual conflict, bearing in mind that over the past 100 years there have been more civil wars globally than wars between nation states?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, I wish to repeat the second part of my reply to the supplementary question. We believe in a Europe that respects political and cultural diversity, which concentrates singlemindedly only on what needs to be done at a European level, and doing it well, and which does not interfere when it is not needed.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch

My Lords, with the leave of the House—I may not be able to intervene in the Statement which is to come later—can I press my noble friend that the Government should at least put to Chancellor Kohl that modern, democratic bourgeois nations do not cause wars such as we have seen erupt from some of the things that Stalin tried to do? I refer to Nagorno-Karabakh, the Transcaucasus, the former Yugoslavia, and so on. Is that question not worth putting to the Chancellor?

Lord Chesham

My Lords, I believe that we are getting into rather hypothetical areas. I prefer to stay where I am.