Ministerial Responsibility to Parliament (Hansard, 4 December 1996)

The Lord Privy Seal (Viscount Cranborne)
My Lords, responsibility lies with Ministers: a Minister of the Crown must not knowingly mislead Parliament and should correct any inadvertent error at the very earliest opportunity.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for that reply. Is he aware that I have known for over two years and that, from the papers I have, the Ministry of Defence has known since 21st July 1996 that organophosphates were used in the Gulf? Is he further aware that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, (on 21st July 1994) and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, (on 26th October 1995) in Answers to Written Questions categorically denied that OPs had been used in the Gulf? Is he also aware that on 4th October 1996 I had a personal letter from the noble Earl, Lord Howe, contradicting those Written Answers? In view of the Questions of Procedure for Ministers made public in May 1992, and supported by the Prime Minister, can the noble Viscount say who is to carry the can?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I know that the noble Countess is aware that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence has instituted an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the events that she has described. I am able to assure the noble Countess that as soon as the results of that inquiry are available my noble friend will inform the House. I expect that information to be available to your Lordships well before Christmas.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, while I support all efforts to trace relevant records, should we not keep this matter in proportion? Can surviving soldiers, beside whom I fought in World War II, claim 664 compensation for contact with the pesticide DDT, later condemned and prohibited, or other chemicals such as those used to make stagnant water drinkable? At that time we were fully engaged, with numerous battle casualties, in the carnage and squalor of war.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I know that my noble friend has more direct experience of what I believe is very often described as the "fog of war" than many in your Lordships' House. Nevertheless, it is clear that something has gone amiss here. I pay tribute to the noble Countess for her persistence in drawing attention to this matter. No Member of this House would in any way condone misinformation knowingly being given to your Lordships' House. I am perfectly clear that my noble friend did not knowingly misinform the House and I am glad to see the noble Countess nodding her head at that. However, it is extremely important that the House should be made aware of the full facts of the case as soon as they are apparent. It is for that reason that I gave the noble Countess the assurance that I did a moment ago.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, perhaps I may echo what the Leader of the House has said about the persistence of the noble Countess on this issue. All of us who have watched and listened to this matter being discussed over the past four to five years have admiration for her tenacity and for the fact that, as it has turned out, she has been right and the Government's answers wrong. The noble Countess asked who is to carry the can. Perhaps I may make two points, and I hope that the Leader of the House will agree with them. The first is that there is a can to be carried. Secondly, it is very important—and I believe that the Leader of the House has already said this—that in these circumstances all the facts come out quickly and that when we know exactly what went wrong in this case this House will have the opportunity to consider the matter.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and I are in agreement about this, as we so often are, although unfortunately not always, as I am the first to admit. It is one of the great sadnesses of my life. The importance that all of us attach to ministerial responsibility to Parliament should be observed and be seen to be observed. It is for that reason that my noble friend will return to this House and make a full Statement as soon as the results of the inquiry are known. As I say, the results should be known well before Christmas. In making the Statement—which I assume the Opposition will be prepared to take—my noble friend will provide an opportunity for your Lordships to cross-question him as to what happened.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, while I agree with every word that has fallen from my noble friend the Leader of the House, in answer to the original Question is it not correct that the true constitutional position is that it is for each House of 665 Parliament severally to enact and enforce its own rules of behaviour with respect to all of its Members?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I believe that I detect an element of correction in what my noble and learned friend has said, in which case I do not have the impertinence even to dream of tangling with him. Certainly, the rules of procedure of this House are for this House to determine. I do not quarrel with that. However, responsibility for the conduct of government lies with Ministers, and it is for Ministers to discharge their responsibilities to whichever House of Parliament they sit in. That is the constitutional position.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that in another place the Prime Minister had to appoint an inquiry chaired by Lord Justice Scott to investigate the accuracy of certain information given from the Dispatch Box in another place which certainly cast doubt on the correctness of some of the information provided in another place? Further, does the Leader of the House agree that if noble Lords cannot receive 100 per cent. accurate replies to Questions put in your Lordships' House it is a waste of time and a threat to democracy itself?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, as so often, I agree wholeheartedly with what the noble Lord has said. It is perhaps rather a perverse indication of the confidence that your Lordships' House has in Ministers in general that this particular episode has, quite rightly, been treated with the seriousness that it has by both your Lordships and members of Her Majesty's Government.

§ Lord Ashley of Stoke
My Lords, does the noble Viscount agree that, although the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, asked for this matter to be kept in proportion, it is a mistake of staggering magnitude in relation to the use or non-use of organophosphates, which no doubt will be borne in mind by the inquiry? I hope that the whole issue will not be belittled by the mention of "a sense of proportion".

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, has always displayed a sense of proportion in his remarkable political career. In reply to the noble Lord, it would be rather perverse if I announced that an inquiry had been instituted and anticipated the results of that inquiry. Its riding instructions are fairly broad, and I hope and believe that the noble Lord will be satisfied by the results.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount and the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition for their kind remarks. I am very humbled by them. Will the noble Viscount stress the importance of this inquiry? We have already lost two-and-a-half years of possible research. As a 666 sufferer from sheep dip poisoning caused by one of the same organophosphates used in the Gulf, I know only too well the devastating effects of these poisons.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House is aware of the courage of the noble Countess in suffering the disability that has been inflicted on her by the use of these chemicals. I also hope she will feel that the Government, in particular the Ministry of Defence, have addressed the question with the seriousness that it deserves.