HL Deb 30 October 1995 vol 566 cc1270-1

2.45 p.m.

Lord Hooson asked Her Majesty's Government:

How many nationals of other European Union member states are currently on remand in the United Kingdom awaiting trial on charges brought against them here.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Blatch)

My Lords, on 30th June 1995 there were 235 nationals of other European Union member states held on remand in prisons in England and Wales. Separate figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland are not available.

Lord Hooson

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, can she say whether this country has taken the initiative in establishing agreed guidelines within the European Community for the refusal of bail? The Minister will be aware of the great and understandable concern caused in this country recently by the knowledge that a British lorry driver had spent 20 months in custody in Spain before being brought to trial for, I believe, a motoring charge on which he was acquitted. Obviously, if that causes concern in this country, similar concern must be felt in other European countries. Is it not now necessary to establish guidelines for the refusal of bail which will be acceptable in each of the European countries?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I believe that the concept of some degree of harmonisation underpins the noble Lord's comments. We do not wish to go down that road. However, we wish to have the highest possible co-operation among member states. Indeed, if one takes the situation of Roy Clarke, who was alluded to in the noble Lord's question, it is not right to assume that for such a serious alleged crime, with millions of pounds being involved in drug peddling, this country would not have granted bail or not have imposed custody. It would be a matter for the courts to decide. That is how it should be.

Lord Richard

My Lords, can the Minister give the House an assurance that the length of time that such people are on remand in British prisons before trial, although they are nationals of European Union countries, is approximately the same as if they were British subjects?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, there is absolutely no distinction whatever made between a foreign national, a European national or a British subject. As I said, it is a matter for the court to determine whether someone should be detained on remand or whether bail should be granted. The time factor for anyone, a foreign national or a subject of this country, is a matter of concern. I know that the Government are doing what they can to ensure that such time is minimised.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, is there not a particular problem in the case of persons held in custody awaiting extradition hearings? Does the Minister recall a certain case where someone who was to be extradited to Hong Kong remained in custody in this country for eight years but, on his return, was finally acquitted of the charges? Is not such custody an enormous burden on taxpayers? Further, should not some mechanism be found for releasing persons who are held beyond a certain time, which I believe is done in Scotland?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, whether someone should be released is a matter for the court; it is not a matter for me to comment upon from the Dispatch Box. As regards this country's record on extradition, in the United Kingdom we believe in the principle that people should face court proceedings in the country in which they are alleged to have committed the offence. Our record for extraditing people so that matters can be expedited is a very good one. For someone who commits an offence in another country, we still believe it is important that that should be where he or she faces court proceedings.

Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone

My Lords, will my noble friend explain why precise figures are available for England and Wales but not for Scotland or Northern Ireland?

Baroness Blatch

No, my Lords, I cannot say why, but I shall find out why they are not readily available.

Lord Hooson

My Lords, why are the Government against harmonisation of approach in this matter within what is a relatively small community, the European Union? Why is it undesirable to have an agreed approach and harmonisation?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, we believe that harmonisation has implications for the judicial system and for jurisdiction in this country. We do not believe in harmonising that aspect of the legal system in this country. Nor do we believe that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that this is a problem which needs to be tackled in this way. I have already given the figure of 235 people who are held on remand. I do not believe that that is sufficient justification for changing the legal system in the United Kingdom.