Benefit Disentitlement (Hansard, 23 November 1995)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish)
My Lords, all departments when considering policy changes consult widely within government to ensure that the full implications of any such changes are properly considered. The nature of such consultation will depend on the policy change in question. Her Majesty's Treasury is fully and actively involved in that process.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, when the Minister's department introduced the jobseeker's allowance, how did it set about identifying the resource implications for other departments?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, as I explained, perhaps briefly—I now do so in a little more detail—when a policy is being considered by a department not only are officials involved at all levels but Ministers are involved. Departments look carefully at the consequences of another department's decisions, especially on their budgets, because if they feel that there is a consequence that will fall on their budget they are not slow in suggesting that there should be transfers of resources from that department to the other one.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, has there been research into, and have calculations been made of, the cost to the country of young people being unable to obtain social security and so unable to obtain accommodation and a job? There is therefore a great cost to the state in other ways. Has that been calculated?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my noble friend is not quite right when she says that young people cannot obtain social security. Some young people can obtain income support as can lone parents, carers, the disabled, people who have recently been in prison, and school leavers who are living independently. And, of course, there is severe hardship provision. As I have made clear on a number of occasions from this Dispatch Box, we do not believe that that is the right course of action for any young person. Young people should remain in education, have a job, or undertake training. We seek to ensure that one of those avenues is available to every young person.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, surely the Minister will agree that while his Answer to my noble friend Lord Russell was perhaps bland rather than informative, his answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, missed entirely the point of what she asked; namely, whether there could be research into this matter so that the Minister's answers in future—it has been a long-running campaign—can be more precise.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, it has been a long-running campaign. I have answered the 414 noble Earl, Lord Russell, on a number of occasions. It is easy for people to ask for research; it is quite a different thing to see how that research can be implemented when it is not easy initially to identify the group for which one is looking other than by going around the streets asking every youngster whether they are on benefit, whether they have been refused it, and why. Equally, it is difficult to see how one devises a control group.

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, to choose a slightly different area, but following the same theme as the noble Earl, do the Government agree that for every pound that the DoE has cut in housing subsidy the DSS has had to pay an extra 75p in housing benefit? As a result, housing benefit has soared. The DSS is now cutting housing benefit so that families face eviction, homelessness, and bed-and-breakfast accommodation which will have to be paid for by the DoE and the local authorities. In other words, is it not the case that as the DoE cuts housing subsidy the DSS pays more housing benefit and as the DSS cuts housing benefit, so the DoE and local authorities have to pay more for homeless families? Is not that endless pass the parcel of exporting costs to some other government department as stupid as it is callous? How does that conform to Treasury guidelines?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that the DoE and the DSS have collaborated closely over the years on the question of public money going into housing. I think that the noble Baroness is attempting to suggest to the House that the Government have been surprised at the shift. Far from it, the Government decided deliberately from 1979 onwards that taxpayers' money should not be spent on subsidising bricks and mortar, as it had been traditionally, but should be spent helping those who cannot afford the rents they are asked to pay. Taxpayers' money should not be paid out to people who could afford higher rents but who were living, especially in local authority housing, in low rented accommodation at the expense of other people.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, are not the increases in crime attributable to young people who have been disentitled to benefit and who feel that they must commit theft or robbery to be able to survive without support?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, that is an interesting proposition which is of course occasionally put forward. There are two defects in it. If crime was being committed only by those people disentitled to benefit, the crime rate would be hugely and markedly lower than it is. Secondly, unfortunately, many crimes are committed by people who have yet to request benefit because they are still at school or, at least, nominally at school.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is widespread concern about the cuts in income support as regards mortgage interest, which will inevitably create more homelessness because of repossessions? Is he telling the House that the Government deliberately took that into consideration 415 knowing the consequences—knowing that there would be more repossessions and further homelessness—and that that is part of his policy?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, we have debated the issue on a number of occasions. I have made it clear to the House—the arguments are there for all to see—that the policy we have pursued in respect of income support and mortgage interest will help the situation. As I have explained to the House, approximately 70 per cent. of home owners are not eligible for income support if they become unemployed. There are a number of reasons for that. They may have capital or their spouses may work, to name but two. Therefore, many people who may require help with their mortgage cannot obtain it through income support. We believe that moving to the insurance-based system, which is proving so successful, will protect not only the people who are currently helped by income support mortgage interest but also those who would not have been helped if they had fallen on hard times.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, when the Minister answered my supplementary question he described the administrative method for deciding who was consulted. Would he be kind enough to tell us the method used for identifying the costs to other departments?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, these are quite complicated issues. It depends on the proposal in front of the departments at any one time. But we do attempt to quantify, especially when departments believe that on the premise on which the noble Earl's argument is based they may have extra costs. They are pretty quick to try to identify and quantify them. As I explained to the noble Earl, we have a whole range of statistics collected by government, and especially by the Department of Social Security, on which we can base our calculations of what may be the impact on other departments of any move that one department makes.

§ Baroness Park of Monmouth
My Lords, in considering all these questions, to what extent does the Minister consult the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, which has a nationwide network of information and knowledge on poverty and the management of poverty?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my department has frequent contacts with the NACAB. Indeed, it is one of the parties which is always consulted when we go out to consultation on any proposals we may have in mind.

§ Lord Richard
My Lord, the Minister referred to a raft of statistics and said that they were complicated computations but that his policies are based upon a load of statistics from which he can obtain the true costs. Are those statistics published and if not can they be published?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, indeed they are published. At least, I think they are published; I will check on that. I am sure that I saw a piece of paper passing my desk recently publishing this year's digest of the statistics of the Department of Social Security and that it was a considerable wodge of paper.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, that is not what I asked the Minister. He referred to statistics on the comparative costs. He said that they were complicated computations but there were a lot of statistics upon which the costs were based. May we have those comparative figures?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I think that what I said was that we can make the calculations based on a lot of the statistics we collect. Those statistics are published in documents such as the one I mentioned but whose title, unfortunately, I cannot remember.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, the Minister said that the Government can make these assessments. Do they make them?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, yes, I think that I did say that. I pointed out to the House that when the Government make decisions about policy the whole Government are involved. All departments are involved. Other departments are interested to watch that the department which is making a policy change is not shifting expenditure in their direction, which is why I pointed out that they may ask for a PES transfer.

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, will the Minister give information to the House about the calculations made by the Department for Education and Employment and any possible correlation between poverty, homelessness and bad housing and poor achievement in school? Will he inform the House whether any of that was done using the slide rule of the number of children receiving free school meals and poor attainment at school?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, while I should like to be able to respond to the noble Baroness, she takes me wide of the territory in which I am normally involved. It would be better if she tabled a Question on the matter. However, during the past few days I have noticed that the Government's decision to publish league tables about schools has proved very successful, especially in pulling up by the boot straps those schools in the very areas about which the noble Baroness is concerned.

§ Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that it would be impossible for a school to teach well children who are receptive and able to learn if more than 20, 30 or 40 per cent. of the children in a class were living in poverty and bad housing and suffering from all the family stresses that that involves? Will he inform the House whether within those league tables there was any reference to poverty indicators when comparing school with school?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I understand that the league tables are largely to do with exam results, which is what I would have thought schools are about. As regards the more general question of measuring people's incomes and so forth, there is plenty of statistical work around and on an area by area basis. I am afraid that the noble Baroness and I are not going to agree on definitions of issues such as poverty because I believe that such aspects are relative, especially when one looks at them around the world.