Means-Tested Benefits: Disentitlement (Hansard, 16 May 1995)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish)
My Lords, changes to the provision of means-tested benefits are considered very carefully. Due regard is given to the effect of any change on individuals or groups, on the social security programme as a whole, on other departmental programmes and on any other areas where it is considered that there may be an impact.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, the Minister has said that he gives "due regard". He has not said how much regard he thinks is due. Can he tell us what he knows about the costs which are incurred by disentitling people to means-tested benefits? Perhaps I may take one example among many. Can the Minister tell us how many of the 16 and 17 year-olds who committed indictable offences last year were without visible legal means of support and if not, why not?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, "due regard" means just what it says. We look at all the knock-on consequences that may arise and we try to evaluate them as best we can. As regards the specific question, I do not have the answer which the noble Earl seeks. I do not know whether it is available. I do not believe that crime can be so simply put down to those youngsters who have not obeyed the various regulations that would allow them to get training, education or benefit.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, the noble Lord said that some notice has been taken of the effects on groups and individuals. Can he tell us how many people have been evicted or rendered homeless because of reductions in their housing benefit? Will the Minister publish the findings of that research?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I cannot give an answer about housing benefit and the effect on people losing their homes. A specific Question would have to be put down to get that information. Although the noble Lord seems to think so, I am not a walking encyclopaedia with the answers. I say to the noble Lord that the cost to the taxpayer of the various housing support benefits has increased quite considerably over the past few years, which shows that we are taking account of the problems which people on low incomes have as regards their housing costs.

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, something like half the number of families in Britain now are on means-tested benefit. Can the Minister tell us why?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I read the statement about that and I shall look into it. One of the problems is many people are considered to be on benefit because they are entitled, for example, to retirement pension or child benefit and the like. But housing and council tax benefits are means tested and come into play when one counts how many people are on some form of means-tested benefit. The fact is that we are very generous in the extension of those means-tested benefits and the noble Baroness's question makes that clear.

§ Lord Beaumont of Whitley
My Lords, my noble friend did not in any way imply that there was a simple answer to crime. However, it is well known that if you have no resources or money you tend to drift into crime. The Government should have statistics on this subject and will they please furnish them?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I am always interested in noble Lords who want statistics on more and more things. I shall certainly look into whether there are statistics on this subject. What is certainly true is that crime is at an unacceptably high level. We all believe that. We are very sure, as any reading of the newspapers will clearly illustrate, that there are many reasons for crime, including, for example, lax family discipline, children not going to school and receiving discipline there, and the rise in the drug culture.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, as regards the Minister's reply to the original Question which refers to, cost-benefit analysis of the effects of disentitling people to means-tested … benefits", he said that a good deal of scrutiny and research takes place into this matter for individuals and groups. I asked the Minister to publish the results of that kind of research so that we can look at it.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I do not believe that I said that. I said, Due regard is given to the effect of any change on individuals or groups", and any changes which may occur across other departmental budgets. I did not specifically mention that we commissioned research or the like, although the Department of Social Security spends a great deal of money undertaking research on a wide range of issues.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that many of the homeless children sleeping on the streets of London—admittedly, the number has diminished lately—have nevertheless been in care? Is he aware that they have no home; that they cannot get accommodation and, because they cannot do that, they cannot get a job and, because they cannot get a job, they cannot get accommodation? Is he further aware that, later, they are found to need the health service a great deal because they are not fit and very often they become the permanent unemployed? Would it not be better to help them at this stage with housing benefit?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, we take into account some of the factors which the noble Baroness mentioned when we look at hardship payments for this specially pressed group of young children coming off local authority care. My noble friend has rightly pointed out that that is a problem area. Perhaps it is a reflection on local authority care as much as anything else.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, the Minister has again invoked the interests of taxpayers, but how can he defend the interests of taxpayers unless he knows what his measures cost as well as what his measures say? The Minister clearly does not know the answers. Could he please try to find them out next time?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I shall certainly look at that point. However, I must advise the noble Earl that even the might of the computer cannot deal with some questions. Indeed, some of the behavioural aspects of the problems that he has raised are among the questions on which it is most difficult to get proper, scientific statistical analysis—I emphasise the word "scientific".