Turkey: Human Rights (Hansard, 1 May 1995)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, the chairman-in-office is aware of the shortcomings in Turkey's human rights performance. We understand an OSCE Parliamentary Assembly delegation is visiting Turkey this week.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall that the Budapest Declaration stated that armed forces will take due care to avoid injury to civilians and their property, and that they will not limit the peaceful and lawful exercise of their human and civil rights by persons, nor deprive them of their cultural or linguistic identity? Is not the fact that 2 million people have been forcibly displaced from their homes in the south-east of Turkey, and something like 2,000 villages and hamlets have been demolished, a large violation of the Budapest Declaration? In the case of Chechnya, the OSCE undertook two missions to the territory and subsequently stationed a permanent mission in Grozny. Does the noble Baroness therefore consider that a mission to the south-east of Turkey is justified, and that a permanent mission should be stationed in the capital of Diyarbakir?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I understand exactly what is in the Budapest Declaration. I have it here and read it again this morning. On the noble Lord's point, as I said in my initial reply, we understand that there are major problems. However, through the OSCE Permanent Council there is a multilateral forum in which we wish Turkey to continue to participate.
The noble Lord is also right that the chairman-in-office, a Hungarian by birth, has done excellent work on Chechnya. Obviously, he exercised a little political judgment. That work is now also continuing for Turkey, and I am delighted that the Turks will receive a visit by the OSCE parliamentary assembly delegation next month. I am certain that we shall hear a great deal more of it because the work is being carried out thoroughly by chairman Kovacs.

§ Lord Archer of Sandwell
My Lords, will the noble Baroness confirm that membership of the CSCE, the Council of Europe and the European Union all entail respect for the rule of law? Whatever else that may require, it is inconsistent with persecuting lawyers simply because they appear for clients of whom the government disapprove. Will Her Majesty's Government make it clear 1206 to Turkey that it will not be acceptable as a full member of the European community of nations until it discontinues that practice?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, the answer to the noble and learned Lord's first question is yes. We have taken every opportunity to make known to the Turkish Government our anxiety over their human rights performance overall. We have emphasised time and time again the need for improvement. The Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly has reiterated its deep concern about human rights in Turkey. It has called for Turkey to bring its constitutional laws into line with the Council of Europe's standards. We know full well that the European Parliament will not agree to various proposals until Turkey puts its house in order. Therefore, all those bodies are working on the subject.
However, we should always remember one point: the closer Turkey is to western institutions, the better locus we have to put across our anxiety on human rights and the rule of law, and the more influence we can bring to bear. That is most important. Of course, I agree with the noble and learned Lord about the persecution of lawyers—and not just persecution but even the killing of some lawyers.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, will the Minister agree that it is unfortunate that the Turkish Government are able to quote in their own defence the outrageous breach of the Budapest Declaration by President Yeltsin against Grozny which happened seven days later?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
Indeed, my Lords; not for the first time I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bruce.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that on the recent inaugural broadcast of the Kurdish satellite television programme in which I took part, I was able to hold a broadcast telephone conversation with Mr. Ocalan, the leader of the PKK, the so-called separatist terrorist organisation? He stated that he was willing to lay down his arms at any time if the Turkish Government would do the same, in order to start talks with an open agenda. Can we persuade the Turkish authorities—to use an old adage—that jaw-jaw is better than war-war?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I did not know that the noble Lord, Lord Rea, had appeared on that programme with Mr. Ocalan. I agree that if that were all that Mr. Ocalan said or did—that is, jaw-jaw rather than war-war—it would be better. However, the PKK leader has undoubtedly been involved in things that are a long way from jaw-jaw and much more like war-war. That is why there is objection to him. It is also why there is great anxiety that any broadcasts made with people like him should be made in the interests of restoring human rights and the rule of law and getting away from the terrible fighting that we have seen in Turkey.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, the noble Baroness mentioned the ideal approach being to bring the Turks into the western arena. Does she accept that since 1974 that has failed? What has resulted is an intransigence on the part of the Turkish authorities and the Turkish 1207 Government, preventing any real attempt at a solution. Is it not time that the United Kingdom Government changed their mind about their own approach?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stallard. What I said some moments ago is important. We need to have Turkey within the sphere of western influence if we are to put across our concerns and if we are to achieve change. I have no doubt that the best approach to Turkey is dialogue. That dialogue needs to be carried on at all levels. It may not succeed and we may have grave problems with it; but I see a situation in Turkey with a government with a narrow power base where it is sometimes difficult to achieve the kind of democracy that we in this country are used to.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, I accept the desirability of trying to keep Turkey within the sphere of western influence, and of course the desirability of dialogue. Nevertheless, will the Minister agree that until Turkey complies with international law—which it has certainly failed to do with respect to its invasion of northern Iraq—and until it improves its human rights record, in particular regarding the Kurds, it is premature for Turkey to enter a customs union with other member countries of the European Union?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with what the noble Baroness said. We know that the incursion into northern Iraq was aimed at destroying the PKK capability to mount attacks against Turkey. But there is no doubt that the non-combatants in the region should not have been affected. It seems that they certainly have been. However, troops are withdrawing and that is a substantial step in the right direction—not before time. We look to the Turks to abide by their undertaking to withdraw fully at the earliest opportunity. Until that happens, and until there is an improvement in the way in which the Turkish Government operate the rule of law, I do not believe that the customs union will come about. That is important for us and is certainly important in influencing that government's better relationships with their own people.

§ Baroness Gould of Potternewton
My Lords, the Minister quoted from the decision of the Council of Europe last week. Are the Government fully in accord with that decision and all the clauses of the resolution?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I would be foolish to say that the Government agreed with every single word; but certainly as to the general tenor of it, I can assure the noble Baroness that the answer is yes.