Sir John Banham (Hansard, 21 March 1995)

§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Viscount Ullswater)
My Lords, the structural review of counties has been completed but we want to ask the commission to look at a shortlist of individual districts. The Government believe that these new reviews should be carried out by a reconstituted commission which can look at the cases afresh.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Under what terms of reference was Sir John Banham appointed? In view of the mess in which the commission has been left—it will be very expensive to clear up—will the Minister tell the House whether Sir John carried out those terms of reference? If he did not carry them out correctly, is that not because, talented though he is and a specialist in his own field, the Government would have done better to appoint someone with a knowledge of local government? We might then have got the right answers.

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, as I indicated, we believe that there should be a newly constituted commission with a new chairman because of the move to a completely new approach. We are grateful to Sir 1127 John for his significant contribution as chairman in the establishment of the commission and in carrying through the accelerated review programme to the tight timescale that was set.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Question refers to Sir John Banham and his chairmanship of the Local Government Commission for England, as it was originally set up, and not to any future plans which the Government may have and about which we may hear this afternoon? Will the Minister answer my noble friend's Question and give the House an indication of how much the Banham Commission has cost council tax payers and taxpayers?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, I am unable to give the noble Lord a figure of the cost of the commission. As he will know, some £50 million has been set aside this year for local government reorganisation. The answer to the first part of the noble Lord's question is that Sir John Banham undertook his work on an accelerated timescale and that the Government have broadly accepted the commission's recommendations for the status quo in many shire counties. Later today my right honourable friend will make a Statement on the remaining counties and I shall repeat that Statement in your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Rochester
My Lords, why then did Sir John Banham feel it necessary to resign? Was not his main offence in the eyes of the Government that he preferred to consult the people rather than to do the bidding of the Government?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, Sir John did indeed consult the people and made a good job of it. The Government have accepted many recommendations of the Local Government Commission, certainly those already announced by my right honourable friend.

§ Lord Aldington
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many of us are glad to hear his relatively commendatory words about Sir John Banham and his expression of the Government's gratitude to him for conducting a task that was practically impossible; namely, to please the Government and at the same time please the many citizens of the country whom he was rightly required to consult? Is it not the case that Sir John did a remarkable job in a short time with great thoroughness and that more than 90 per cent. of his recommendations have been accepted?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. Sir John undertook a difficult task and he performed it well. As I indicated, in relation to those recommendations that have been announced, my right honourable friend has agreed broadly with the commission's recommendations.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, following on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Aldington, and the fact that Sir John has done an excellent job, but also in view of the 1128 enormous cost of the exercise, is it not disturbing that the Government are prolonging the process by having this further inquiry?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, the commission has recommended the status quo in a few of the largest non-metropolitan towns and districts but has recommended unitary status in other similarly sized towns. The Government believe that there should be a reasonable level of coherence. That is why they wish to establish a newly constituted commission with new guidance to look at the case for unitary status in a short list of districts. That was announced on 2nd March.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, bearing in mind the role of the Department of the Environment in all this, will my noble friend confirm or deny the suggestion which is going around Whitehall that the nets outside that building have been put them to catch any Minister who may be tempted to jump out?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, the nets certainly remain but, as yet, I do not believe that a Minister has been tempted to jump.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, the Minister referred to a "reasonable level of coherence". What does that mean? It does not seem to me to mean anything.

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, I indicated that the commission has recommended the status quo for a few of the largest districts among the non-metropolitan areas but has recommended unitary status for other towns of very similar size. We believe that the commission should have an opportunity to re-examine that in order to assess the coherence; that is, the similarity.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that this is the fourth time since, and including, the Heath Government that local government has been disrupted by Conservative governments? Local government has suffered severely from that. If the Government get it right this time, will they, for God's sake, leave it to settle down and get on with doing the job?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, I understand the frustration of the noble Lord and many other noble Lords in this House. We obviously need to make certain that local government is efficient and that it delivers in the most effective way the services which people in the localities require.