HL Deb 09 March 1995 vol 562 cc398-400

3.18 p.m.

Baroness Perry of Southwark asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they are considering any change in the arrangements for funding the fees charged to students by the colleges of Oxford and Cambridge.

Lord Lucas

No, my Lords, we have no such plans.

Baroness Perry of Southwark

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply, which will give great pleasure to the colleges of Oxford and Cambridge, and I hope to others as well. However, in the light of the statement that was made earlier this week by the Labour Party spokesman on higher education that his party, if elected, would abolish the funding for Oxford and Cambridge fees, can my noble friend assure the House that this Government are not committed to going down the route of giving equal funding to all, regardless of quality, but that they will continue to reward academic excellence in those universities which are capable of attracting the brightest and most able students and the brightest and best staff?

Lord Lucas

My Lords, I am very happy to give my noble friend the assurance that she requires. Of course, I do not have any inside track on Labour Party education policy. It has occasionally seemed to me that those sitting opposite do not have one either. However, it appears sometimes that some members of the Labour Party do not believe in excellence in education except where their own children are concerned.

Lord Desai

My Lords, can the Minister tell us how much Oxbridge costs additionally compared with other universities? Has he any measure of value added that Oxbridge gives to its students compared with other less well known universities?

Lord Lucas

My Lords, in 1994–95 the average cost for a student at Oxbridge was £4,852. That compares with the next most expensive university, which is Imperial College, London, at £4,465. I shall be happy to supply the noble Lord with extensive information on value added but we do not have any particular index to offer.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris

My Lords, the Minister may be aware that on 1st March his honourable friend in another place, announcing that the HEFC had been asked to advise on the annual increase of the average college fee at Oxford and Cambridge, said: The Council has been asked to base its advice on the annual movement in public funding at universities with a similar mission".—[Official Report, 1/3/95; col. 614] Can the Minister tell the House who decided, and when and how it was decided, which universities have a "similar mission" to Oxford and Cambridge?

Lord Lucas

My Lords, the subject was decided in agreement with the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. In fact, the practice has been followed for some years. What has happened this year is that the responsibility for determining the final figures has been transferred to the Higher Education Funding Council.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris

My Lords, I beg the Minister's pardon. People were talking and I did not quite catch the beauty of his opening sentence. Did I hear him correctly or incorrectly? Did he say that this matter had been decided in consultation with the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge and no one else—for example, not with the Universities of Wales or London, which are collegiate universities, or with Sheffield University, which works on halls of residence?

Lord Lucas

My Lords, it was a matter for decision by the Government. The Government consulted Oxford and Cambridge. I do not see that it is a matter for any other university.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, how do the Government justify the enormous differential between the funding of Oxford and Cambridge colleges and the funding of colleges in provincial collegiate universities—for example, Durham?

Lord Lucas

My Lords, I do not want to go into a long discussion of exactly how the higher education funding formula works. I should be very happy to write to the noble Lord if he has a particular question to ask. But the basic answer to the question is that it is on the basis of excellence.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, is the noble Lord saying that the tuition in Oxford and Cambridge is better than the tuition in Durham? Is he really saying that? If he is, he ought not to be doing that job.

Lord Phillips of Ellesmere

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there has long been a dispute between the research councils and the British Academy on the one hand, and the collegiate universities on the other hand, as to whether those bodies should pay postgraduate fees to the colleges in those universities? To many people that seems a rather strange situation. Can the Minister tell the House whether the Government have any plans to change it?

Lord Lucas

My Lords, I am not aware of any plans to change it but I shall happily write to the noble Lord and confirm what I have said.