§ 3.21 p.m.
§ Lord Pearson of Rannoch asked Her Majesty's Government: Whether they believe that the United Kingdom's European partners would deny the United Kingdom access to the single market if the United Kingdom were to withdraw from the Treaty of Rome and, if so, whether such denial would contravene the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Earl Ferrers)My Lords, the United Kingdom does not intend to withdraw from the Treaty of Rome.
§ Lord Pearson of RannochMy Lords, I think it is my duty to thank my noble friend for that reply, which, like the reply given to me by my noble friend Lady Chalker yesterday, does not make a tremendously valiant attempt to answer the Question on the Order Paper. Does my noble friend accept that it is our access to the single market as opposed to our membership of the European Union which confers a benefit on commerce and industry based in this country? Is he aware that Switzerland, which recently voted not to enter even the European Economic Area—that is to say, neither the European Communities nor the European Union—at present exports more than three times per capita than we do to the European Communities? Does that mean that life outside the European Union would really be so terrible for us?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, my noble friend said that my noble friend Lady Chalker made a valiant attempt to answer his Question yesterday. I listened to it and I thought it was an excellent answer—not an attempt but a very good answer. The question which my noble friend poses is totally hypothetical. It is rather like him asking me what life is like in the next world. I cannot tell him. He will find out one day.
§ Lord Jenkins of HillheadMy Lords, will the noble Earl assure us that if the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, continues to try to make an art form out of asking a series of tendentious, hypothetical and potentially damaging questions of this kind he will join with the noble Baroness in hitting him out of the ground as successfully as she did yesterday? Will he also bear in mind that the European Union has consistently tried to pursue a good neighbour policy towards the EFTA countries outside it (which is different from leaving the Community); and, in particular—as appears to be increasingly the assumption of those who believe that outside a single currency, if one 1462 comes about, we would be free (which we never were even under Bretton Woods) to do an infinite series of competitive devaluations, a continuation of a trend by which monetary sovereignty has succeeded in reducing the value of the pound from 12 deutschmarks to just over 2 deutschmarks in 35 years—that if we were to go on with that without consultation some reaction from the European Union would not be unexpected?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I dislike knocking my noble friend Lord Pearson out of the ground on any occasion other than this. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, that when he asks absurd questions like this he will get very sensible answers which I hope will knock him out of the ground and possibly into the ground. It is a fallacy to suggest that if we are members of the European Union—a union in which we have a great part to play, which happens to be of great benefit to us and by which we are a great benefit to it—and decide to leave, the other members will say, "You have decided to leave what you consider to be our rotten, stinking club but nevertheless we are going to be the greatest friends with you". That is impractical and it will not work. That is why we ought to remain in the Union and make it work to the best of our ability not only for the United Kingdom but for Europe as a whole as well.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there has been some encouragement to speculate on this matter following a speech by M. Delors, who I believe has friends in all parties and in all quarters of the House, on 13th February last in which he made a very constructive suggestion indeed, doubtless with Her Majesty's Government in mind, that means ought to be found formally to agree a method by virtue of which existing member states could, if they so wished, negotiate their way out of the Community? Therefore, there is some legitimate speculation about this matter. I should be most grateful, as I am sure the House would be, if the noble Earl could confirm, in answer to the latter part of the Question, that Her Majesty's Government have quite independent relations with GATT irrespective of their representations through the European Community.
Earl FerrersMy Lords, the noble Lord referred to M. Delors speculating. I think that the noble Lord is as good a speculator as my noble friend behind me. But let me tell him of one thing that M. Delors said. As a result of the United Kingdom being part of Europe, 40 per cent. of all the investment that comes into Europe from Japan comes to the United Kingdom; 43 per cent. of all the investment from the United States into Europe comes to the United Kingdom; and it was M. Delors who said that the United Kingdom is a paradise for investment. That is something which those who are against the Community ought to remember.
With regard to our relationship with GATT, we are a full member of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade and we have a perfectly good relationship with Europe as a result of being part of a free trade area which is also part of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade.
§ Lord MarshMy Lords, does the Minister agree that, important to the United Kingdom as Europe undoubtedly is, the Euro-fanatics tend to exaggerate its importance in 1463 the modern world and that most serious international studies would place the market opportunities as the Far East first, the United States second and Europe third? It is important, but we do not really all want to become little Europeans.
Earl FerrersMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. Anyone who takes a strong view at either one end of the spectrum or the other does a disservice to the whole. The fact is that we have a great part to play in Europe. We are part of Europe and we can help to guide Europe not only for the benefit of Europe but for the rest of the world. The noble Lord is also right on another point. Our relationships do not relate only to Europe. The Far East is a tremendously growing market opportunity. So is India. So are other parts of the world. We want to be part of that. Because we are part of Europe that enables us better to be part of the other growing parts of the world.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, is not the sum of the matter that we are better in with a vote than out without one and that when we use our vote we use it in the interests of this country?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, my noble and learned friend always puts things so succinctly. I could not agree with him more.
§ Lord MonsonMy Lords, does the noble Earl agree that one beneficial consequence of our withdrawing from the Treaty of Rome would be, according to the transport research laboratory, that 35 lives a year could be saved and 350 serious injuries avoided in that we could then outlaw lethal bull-bars on motor vehicles which at present we are unable to do because of European Community regulations?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I do not know who thought of that statistic, but it is a total irrelevance because we are not going to withdraw from the Treaty of Rome.
§ The Earl of OnslowMy Lords, can my noble friend help me on this point? A Committee of your Lordships' House said that it was impossible for the Visegrad countries to join the European Community with the common agricultural policy as it stands at the moment. It also showed that trade agreements with Eastern Europe allow in what those countries do not produce and keep out what they can produce cheaply. What efforts are going to be made to widen the Community so that it becomes a real and proper trading community which gives opportunities to Eastern Europe in order to save it from going fascist?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, the European Community started off as an organisation with about six members. It is now an organisation with 15 members. Finland, Sweden and Austria have recently joined and certain countries of Eastern Europe are likely to join such as Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland. I have no doubt that others will also join in due course.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords—
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware—noble Lords may not like it and may find it boring if we complete the questions on this subject, but I 1464 am not going to be silenced. The longer noble Lords keep up the barracking, the longer I shall stay on my feet. Is the noble Earl aware that I was very surprised to hear him intimate that perhaps Europe might take a spiteful attitude if it was thought that it was in this country's best interests to withdraw from the Treaty of Rome and its subsequent amendments? Is he further aware that we have run a cumulative trade deficit of £87,000 million with the EC since we have been a member? Would not the European Community be cutting off its nose to spite its face if it did indeed take a spiteful attitude, which I do not believe it will?
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I shall have to take some time to work out the exact point that the noble Lord is trying to make, but I would probably agree with him.