COMMONS AMENDMENT (Hansard, 11 July 1995)

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 185. I shall also speak to Amendment No. 189. These two amendments ensure that when the Bill is brought into 1576 force, any consequential amendments to this or other legislation can be dealt with, and all necessary transitional and savings provisions can be made. Amendment No. 189 also allows provision to be made in Northern Ireland for countryside grants.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, these are important amendments. I understand from what the noble Earl has said that the Government are trying to take powers to amend previous legislation and orders. These are regarded as consequential powers. I do not think that we should let these matters proceed without further explanation from the noble Earl as to why the Government wish to take the powers and what parliamentary approval will be available for the powers which the Government may wish to exercise.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, as the noble Lord has said, it is perfectly true that these are important amendments. Perhaps I can try to put him out of his misery and to tell him a little more as to what they are about. I gather from the noble Lord that he is not miserable, so that makes the two of us. Amendment No. 185 widens the power in Clause 102 to make minor consequential amendments by regulations. It provides that the amendments which can be made to other enactments are not limited to those which are not mentioned in Schedule 18. This will ensure that any missed consequentials which are noted after the Bill has been brought into force can be corrected by regulation.
Amendment No. 189 inserts two new subsections into Clause 107 of the Bill. The first subsection extends the power for an appointed day order to make transitional provisions and savings in connection with the bringing into force of any of the provisions in the Bill. The second subsection will allow provisions corresponding to Clause 81 of the Bill to be made in Northern Ireland.
The negative resolution procedure is being provided on this occasion because the substance of the amendment has already been debated in this House and in another place. We are seeking to use scarce parliamentary time efficiently and effectively by providing for the Order in Council making provision in Northern Ireland to be subject to negative resolution, and so avoid going over ground which has already been the subject of debate in the House.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, will he enlarge on that? Has the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee of this House had a look at this particular provision? So far as I am aware, there is no mechanism for it to do so. I believe that this is a matter that should be brought to that Committee because it allows, as a Commons amendment, which your Lordships are now being asked to accept, amendment by order of primary legislation. Is not that something that we have discussed in this House on many, many occasions? Is it not something that we ought to take more seriously than I think the noble Earl does at the moment? Should we not just note on the record that the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee ought also to look at Commons amendments 1577 when they come before your Lordships when they seek to amend primary legislation by order? That, after all, is the point of the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I can understand the noble Lord, Lord Williams of Elvel, wanting to know whether the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee has looked at this. What the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee does is to look at all Bills which are proposed to go before Parliament to see what delegated powers are being given by virtue of the Bills. However, what it cannot do is to look at amendments which have been made in another place before they come before your Lordships. That has not been done up to now and one of the reasons for that is simply because the timescale does not provide for it. That has not been part of the practice.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl. I think we would both agree that, if the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee has power given by this House to look at Bills coming before this House which give powers to Secretaries of State to amend primary legislation by regulation, it ought also to be able to look at Commons amendments. After all, that is the privilege of this House; to look at Commons amendments or indeed look at Bills in any form. I will leave it there on the record in the hope that those who may be attending to our proceedings can report them to the appropriate authorities. The Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee, and the House, ought to be advised that it should have the right to look at Commons amendments and not just at the Bill when it first comes to us.

§ Lord Beaumont of Whitley
My Lords, I think that we on these Benches would like to associate ourselves with those remarks and I hope that the matter will be looked at.