HL Deb 05 July 1995 vol 565 c1182

83A After Clause 76, in subsection (5), leave out ("an officer or).

Lord Macaulay of Bragar

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 83A as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 83. In moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 83B. The reason for leaving out the words "an officer of and linking the evidence to the department is that there is no control over the people who can give evidence. I should like to see the matter more restricted than it is at present. As it stands, it is rather vague. It refers to "an officer of the department". What is an officer of the department? Does that mean a civil servant, the office boy or a higher executive officer? By providing for the department to be able to make representations to the court, the department will then decide who should represent it at court; otherwise, anybody can walk into court and make representations. I beg to move.

Lord Fraser of Carmyllie

My Lords, the amendments to which the noble Lord has spoken would replace the reference to an officer of the department with a reference to the department. While I understand that he is concerned that an appropriate person should deal with these matters, I do not understand what practical difference the amendments make in legal or in practical terms.

A government department can act only through its officers. Where representations are to be made on behalf of the department, they can be presented only through an officer or a solicitor instructed by the department.

The anxiety which may have prompted the amendment is that there may be doubt as to whether the current reference in the provisions to an officer of the department means that the department cannot be represented in court by an advocate or solicitor. There is no doubt that an officer making representations could be so represented by a lawyer. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will agree that his anxieties, which I understand, are misplaced.

Lord Macaulay of Bragar

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment No. 83A, as an amendment to Commons Amendment No. 83, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 83B and 83C not moved.]

On Question, Motion agreed to.