Countryside Council for Wales (Hansard, 17 January 1995)

Lord Lucas
My Lords, we consider that there is scope, following the financial management and policy review, for improving the efficiency and focus of the Countryside Council for Wales through a reduction in its overheads, management restructuring and a reassessment of some of its other programmes. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales is continuing to discuss the council's detailed plans with it and has agreed to provide an additional £0.5 million to secure the future of Tir Cymen. He is meeting the council again next week, and it is expected that detailed plans will be issued shortly thereafter.

§ Lord Moran
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I particularly welcome what he said about the future of Tir Cymen. However, will he explain why the Welsh agency has been singled out for a substantial cut of 16.3 per cent. while no comparable cuts have been made in the funding of English Nature or Scottish Natural Heritage? Will not a cut of that magnitude make it difficult for the Countryside Council for Wales to fulfil its statutory duties to help conserve the Welsh countryside and Welsh life, and to make its proper contribution to the Joint Nature Conservation Council? In particular, how can the council fulfil its responsibilities in carrying out regulations implementing the habitats and species directive which we discussed in this House on 17th October last? As I pointed out at the time, at col. 102, those were new duties which would require the statutory agencies to be given additional funding. Are we not making it just about impossible for the Welsh agency to carry out its duties?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, to answer the second question first, there is no question but that the Countryside Council for Wales will carry out all its statutory duties. In particular the implementation of the habitats directive is a priority which will be accommodated within the grant-in-aid provision.
As to the overall reduction in resources for the Countryside Council for Wales, that is a matter which has been decided by looking at the Welsh council as a Welsh entity and not by comparison with its equivalents in England and Scotland. We have seen opportunities for improving the efficiency and focus of the Welsh agency. I cannot today offer the noble Lord any suggestions as to whether there are similar opportunities in the other countries.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, how can the noble Lord expect the Welsh council to perform its 530 whole range of statutory duties with a reduction in resources of this magnitude? Is he aware that there is considerable disquiet in the Principality about the way in which it is being treated in this and in other ways? It has come to the conclusion that perhaps the best solution would be for us to have the Secretary of State for Scotland in Wales and to send Mr. Redwood to Scotland.

Lord Lucas
My Lords, the Countryside Council for Wales is confident that it can perform all its functions despite the reduction in its resources. It is a question of improving efficiency and of cutting out expenditure which is no longer considered necessary.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, does the noble Lord make the charge against the Welsh council that it is less efficient than the English and Scottish councils? I have been informed for several years that the Welsh council is very efficient indeed. Does he use such an argument to justify the cut?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, no. There is no question of comparison. My right honourable friend is looking at the Countryside Council for Wales as a Welsh entity and not by reference to its national equivalents.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the population of Wales is about half that of Scotland, and that the population of Scotland is about 10 per cent. that of England?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, yes.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, does the Minister accept that the answer he gave about some work being considered no longer necessary will cause great anxiety? For example, work continues at present on rights of way and improving access in parts of Wales. Is that one of the casualties that we may expect? A joint programme is being undertaken with the RSPB monitoring bird species; it is important work. Will that be one of the casualties?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I should like to be helpful to the noble Baroness but I am not in a position to be so today. As I said, the detailed matters are still under discussion. An announcement can be expected within the next few weeks. Until then I do not believe that it would be helpful for me to speculate on exactly what will occur.

§ Lord Prys-Davies
My Lords, bearing in mind that your Lordships' House commended the Tir Cymen programme, do I understand the Minister to say that the department is guaranteeing the ring-fencing of funding of Tir Cymen so that schemes can remain open to new applicants for the full five years of the scheme?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I should not like to speculate that far. However, I can say that the funding for 1995–96 will represent an increase on the previous year.

§ Lord Prys-Davies
My Lords, does the noble Lord appreciate that the period does not include the fifth year of the Tir Cymen scheme? The scheme was approved in glowing terms in the 14th report of the European Communities Select Committee. Will the noble Lord 531 use his best endeavours to ensure that his ministerial colleagues in the Welsh Office read and digest the 14th report, and in particular paragraph 53?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am happy to give the noble Lord at least part of the comfort he seeks. He can be certain that the Government have not made this announcement in relation to Tir Cymen believing that it is just another programme. It is one of the most successful programmes to come from the Countryside Council for Wales. It enjoys full support within the Government. However, I shall read Hansard to see whether I can add anything to what I have said today to assist the noble Lord.

§ Lord Monkswell
My Lords, the Minister has explained that part of the reason for the reduction in expenditure is that the Countryside Council for Wales no longer needs to do some things which it did in the past. Noble Lords have asked whether particular programmes come into that category. Can the noble Lord advise the House what the Countryside Council for Wales will no longer do or what the Government believe it needs no longer do which contributes to the savings of which the Minister spoke?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I have already answered that Question. As soon as the decisions have been taken, an announcement will be made