Leg Shackles (Hansard, 16 February 1995)

The Minister of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, the export of leg shackles is controlled and export licences would not be granted. It is impossible, of course, to control the use to which perfectly legitimate goods may be put in other countries.

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, in view of the "Dispatches" programme on Channel 4 television last month which indicated that leg shackles and electric shock batons were being exported by this country, will the Minister look again at that vile trade and give us an assurance that it will stop immediately?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I understand that the Channel 4 programme, to which the noble Lord referred, 788 consisted of a person who set up other companies to try to supply various pieces of equipment. He tried to get the Royal Ordnance and ICL Technical Plastics to supply electric batons. The Royal Ordnance offered to supply from abroad but did not do so. ICL Technical Plastics offered to supply various equipments and implied that it could assemble them on its own premises. Hiatts was asked to supply leg irons, neck restraints, gang chains and other items but declined because it considered neck restraints not to be a civilised form of restraint. I understand that that particular programme was designed to try to entrap people and they were not entrapped.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that this country is not exporting land-mines, which continue to kill and maim indefinitely? We should all be relieved to know that we are not playing any part in the export of those instruments.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the export of military equipment is another matter. I can only say that, in general, military equipment is exported only for military purposes and not where it is likely to be used for internal repression.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, having seen the results of some of these torturous weapons and the use made of them in other countries, I must ask why the Government do not decide that Britain should not export such items? Why cannot they end this wicked trade?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, did not listen as carefully as he usually does to my initial Answer. The export of leg shackles is controlled and export licences are not granted. On the other hand, one cannot control the purposes for which other perfectly normal pieces of equipment are used in other countries. For example, 5-amp electric flex can be used in a vicious way. Bicycle chains or even cigarettes can be used as elements of torture and it would be wrong to exclude the export of those items.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, I am disappointed that the noble Earl is not taking the Question as seriously as he ought. These are such loathsome objects that I would not even suggest that they be used to control English football supporters.
Can the noble Earl explain why objects which are as loathsome as those mentioned can be hidden under the heading, "They are legitimate if they are controlled"? I understand that the noble Earl said that they are controlled. His department should be doing something a lot more positive so that, if for no other reason than our national honour, "Made in England" does not appear on those objects when they are used by repressive regimes abroad.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, unusually for the noble Lord, Lord Peston, he is being slightly emotive on this subject. He referred to "loathsome objects", and did not say what they were. I said that the export of leg shackles—if that is what he means by "loathsome objects"—is controlled; that export licences would be required and would not be given. I can also say that under the export and controls order, licences are 789 required for acoustic devices, for anti-riot shields, for leg irons and shackles, for portable anti-riot devices, for water cannon, for riot control vehicles, and so forth. I cannot understand why the noble Lord, Lord Peston, feels that the Government are encouraging those exports when they are totally and perfectly correctly controlled.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, can the noble Earl clarify his answer? Is he saying that the Government have powers to control the export and that the items are not being exported? That is the point at issue. I refer to leg shackles and similar repressive objects. Can the noble Earl assure the House that the British Government are not allowing those things to be exported? That is the only question at issue. It is nothing to do with 5-amp cord or anything like that. It concerns something much more serious.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, it is difficult to explain to the noble Lord exactly what I mean when I have already said it twice, but I am happy to repeat it for a third time. The export of leg shackles is controlled and export licences would not be given. Full stop. If the noble Lord then asks whether other things are exported from this country which in other circumstances may be used as offensive weapons, I am bound to say that perfectly legitimate items which can be and are exported nevertheless may be used for offensive purposes. We cannot control that.

§ Lord Dubs
My Lords, will the Minister look again at the transcript of the Channel 4 programme? He will see a quotation from a businessman referring to electric shock weapons where he says, We went to China and sold to China with the government's blessing". Will the Minister look again at the whole issue with specific reference to electric shock batons.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, should not take every television programme at its face value. Certain people are prepared to make programmes and entrap people into making certain comments. They then broadcast them as programmes in which they purport to show that people are behaving in an untoward way. I explained that that particular programme involved three firms and those firms acquitted themselves reasonably.