HL Deb 06 February 1995 vol 561 cc7-8

2.54 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:

What action they are taking in the light of the Audit Commission's finding that inefficiencies among local authorities cost up to £1 billion a year of taxpayers' money.

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Viscount Ullswater)

My Lords, the Government very much welcome these reports which set out clearly what could be achieved if all local authorities were to perform as well as the best. It is now for each individual authority to consider these reports and to see what value for money improvements they can make.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, does my noble friend's Answer mean that the Government as such are doing nothing about this?

Viscount Ullswater

No, my Lords. Indeed my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has already had preliminary discussions with local government leaders about the report and plans to have fuller talks with them and also with the Audit Commission next month. I should point out that the Audit Commission report is not a government report.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, in his supplementary question asked whether the noble Viscount's answer meant that the Government were doing nothing about this. If they are not doing anything about it, the Government—the Minister must understand this—are only doing what they did when Questions were put in this Chamber regarding the Wessex Regional Health Authority, the West Midlands Health Authority and the development corporation for Wales. Nothing was done then either. Is the Minister aware that it is time that the three instances I have mentioned were dealt with by the Government, just like the matter we are discussing now?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, reverting more to the Question on the Order Paper, the studies make recommendations for good practice and the commission will usually seek to disseminate this through guidance to district auditors or sometimes in publications aimed at a wider audience. As part of the follow up, the auditors will usually be asked to pay particular attention to its findings during the course of the following year's audit. Therefore there is a route that the commission takes as regards local authorities. It expects the district auditor to pay attention to the recommendations.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, what precisely does the Audit Commission mean by "inefficiency"?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, the main findings of this report indicated that, although total local authority staff numbers have fallen between 1987 and 1993, non-manual staff numbers rose by 90,000, with numbers in senior posts rising by some 60 per cent. Significant pay bill savings therefore are available from improved productivity and from the better management of pay. Those are the commission's findings, not the Government's.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, does not the noble Viscount agree that when one removes powers from an organisation and makes it responsible for only 20 per cent. of money raising powers, it is inevitable that it will be less responsible than if it had those powers? Is not the answer to give local authorities more power and make them responsible for raising a greater proportion of the money they spend?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, central Government do not control local government pay and conditions of service. That is the basis of this report. I believe that this report indicates that if all local authorities managed their pay as well as the best there would be room for savings.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Audit Commission report did not refer to inefficiencies costing £1 billion but to increased expenditure on management? Will the Minister also confirm that an arbitrary figure of £18,000 a year salary was used and that this figure includes large numbers of local government staff who are not managers but deliverers of services, such as environmental health officers, chief librarians and others?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, the Audit Commission directed its attention to the question of management, staff and pay. I believe that that needs to be taken into account when looking at the matters in hand because it is up to each local authority to decide on its individual circumstances. I believe that they have not addressed the question of the management of pay as well as they could.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, following on the question of my noble friend Lord Cledwyn on the definition of inefficiency, would the Minister classify the failure of Westminster City Council to collect some £30 million for repairs from its leaseholders as inefficiency or culpable negligence?

Viscount Ullswater

My Lords, I shall not comment because that is a matter for the district auditor.