HM Prisons: Bullying (Hansard, 20 December 1995)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Blatch)
My Lords, the Government take the issue of bullying in all prisons very seriously. Since 1993, the Prison Service has published an official policy on bullying which provides clear guidance for establishments to address and reduce the problem. The transfer of male and female prisoners who persistently display bullying behaviour is used as a last resort when all other means have failed. If that becomes necessary, transfer procedures are in place. The Prison Service is currently examining ways of making the transfer process even more effective.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. However, can she help the House and tell us what is actually happening in women's prisons at present? First, we have the situation at Risley where it has been made clear that there have been a number of serious sexual assaults on women inmates. Secondly, we have the situation at Holloway where General Sir David Ramsbotham had to withdraw his inspection team because of the degrading conditions that he found there. Thirdly, we hear today of the report on New Hall women's prison. Is not the Minister becoming increasingly embarrassed at having to defend such an appalling situation?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, as regards the sexual assaults, I can tell the House that the situation was 1604 promptly dealt with. The governor has put it in the hands of the police who are dealing with the matter. Therefore, it would be improper for me to make any further comment. As for the transfer of people, I have said that that is a last resort. It is very much a matter for the governors to deal with in the first instance. It was a very serious incident and the six people who were suspected of participation had to be dispersed very quickly. That gave rise to the problem.
I turn now to the inspection of Holloway Prison. I share the concern expressed about the situation; indeed, we should all do so. However, it is not about money, because extra money was put into Holloway for more staff and improved training even before the inspector withdrew his team. Senior management at headquarters is working with the governor and setting firm targets for improvements and dates by which those improvements must be achieved. So that matter is also in hand. Therefore, although we are concerned about such matters, as long as the governors and the Home Office are taking them seriously, I am happy to come to the Dispatch Box and account for them.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the Minister said that it is not a question of money. However, is it not a fact that when we learnt about the appalling conditions at Holloway, we also learnt that the prison is overcrowded in that there are 561 inmates when there should be only 507? Surely that is a question of money.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the prison estate for female prisoners is not overcrowded. There are 2,065 female prisoners, so overcrowding is not the issue; and it is certainly not the issue as it relates to the Question on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, if it is not a question of money or overcrowding and if there are enough staff, can my noble friend the Minister tell the House what it is?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, perhaps I may say to my noble friend that it is partly a question of management.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, the Minister has just made a statement which implies criticism of the present governor of Holloway Prison. Is that her position? Is that what she is saying?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Lord has a fertile imagination when interpreting what I say. I said that it is sometimes a question of management.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, on being questioned during a television news programme as to what conditions were like at Holloway, an inmate who had just been released said, "Yes, it is tough and security is tough; but what else do you expect? It is a prison, not a holiday camp."?

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, some noble Lords seem to be sympathetic to the point that the noble Lord makes. That indeed is one of the issues. There is laxity in some prisons and it is a question of management. Where there is good management usually there is minimal trouble.

§ Lord Gilmour of Craigmillar
My Lords, the Government evidently knew some time ago that the conditions in Holloway were appalling. I visited Holloway a few weeks ago and the situation was so bad that the prisoner I visited was half an hour late in arriving because there was no one in Holloway to bring her down. Why did not the Government do something about this a long time ago?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the Government have responded to the situation. As I said a moment ago, extra staff and extra training have been provided at Holloway. Targets have been set. They have not all been met but time limits have been set for meeting those targets. Sending in the inspectors is all part of monitoring the adequacy of the service for my right honourable friend the Home Secretary.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, the House may be slightly mystified by what the Minister has said. When she replied to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, she said that he had a fertile mind. I would ask the Minister what constitutes management if it is not the way in which the prison is run? Is she criticising the way in which Holloway has been run, and, if so, what are those criticisms? Can we please have some more detail?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I was asked to give reasons why sometimes there are problems in prisons. I said that it is often a question of management. It is often a question of management, but that is not the only reason. There may be other reasons. In the case we are discussing obviously more staff were needed and more staff have been provided. More money was needed and more money has been provided. The inspector set a programme for the prison to enact. The Home Office has set management tasks for the prison to meet and has set dates by which those tasks must be met.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, I am sorry to press this point—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, I hope I may make this point and then I shall willingly shut up and give way. I wish to ask the Minister a relatively simple question. Is she criticising the way in which Holloway has been run? Is that what she means by ascribing a fault to management because, if so, she ought to say so?

§ Baroness Blatch
No, my Lords. I said that often the problems in prisons have something to do with management in prisons. Anyone who has a supervisory position in a prison has a management responsibility. When the inspector returns to the prison he will expect that what he has asked to be achieved will have been achieved. The Home Office will also expect its targets to have been achieved by the management of the prison.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, has my noble friend seen the rather disquieting reports in the press about the shackling of women inmates and about the treatment of women who are about to give birth?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I have seen those reports. It is true that the handcuffing of prisoners was applied unequally. It was applied in a more lax way to women prisoners and in a more serious way to male prisoners. The result was that more women prisoners escaped. The policy now is that handcuffing is applied equally to both sexes.