HL Deb 11 October 1994 vol 557 cc818-20

3.18 p.m.

Baroness Castle of Blackburn asked Her Majesty's Government:

In the light of the report of the House of Commons Select Committee on Transport (HC 137), what is their current policy on the privatisation of the Transport Research Laboratory.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen)

My Lords, in March this year the then Secretary of State for Transport announced in response to the report of the House of Commons Select Committee on Transport the decision that the Transport Research Laboratory was to be privatised. We see no reason to alter that decision.

Baroness Castle of Blackburn

I find that a scandalously inadequate Answer because the Government, as they should, have published their response to the Select Committee's recommendations. I was about to congratulate the Government, they may be surprised to hear, on the fact that they have conceded two important points in the Select Committee's report, most notably agreeing to withdraw their proposals for the privatisation of the vehicle inspectorate's testing activities. Therefore, I began to hope that perhaps this Government's political prejudices were not set in concrete. Unfortunately, I cannot offer those congratulations in view of the Answer and in view of the fact that the Government have not dealt with the arguments of the Select Committee as to why the privatisation of the Transport Research Laboratory should not go ahead.

Noble Lords

Question, question!

Baroness Castle of Blackburn

In fact, the Government's own response reminds us that the Select Committee of the Commons said that it could not recommend privatisation without much more convincing evidence that the privatisation—it is here; those who obviously have not read it should do so—

Noble Lords

Order!

Baroness Castle of Blackburn

—would not damage the independence and expertise of the TRL.

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, the reasons behind our privatisation proposals for the TRL are absolutely clear. We believe that privatisation will put the TRL into a better and more secure position to compete for work both in the public and private sectors. It will bring future security for that institution.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, was it not absolutely plain from the report that the Conservative majority on the committee, alongside the Labour Members, said that the Government had failed to provide convincing evidence in support of the proposition, dogma driven, which the Minister has just announced? Therefore, would it not be appropriate for the Minister to present to the House the evidence based upon which the Government make that assertion and bring forward a quite absurd proposition which, in our judgment, will do immense damage to the viability of the laboratory?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I cannot accept the proposition put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. We believe that privatisation will be of great benefit to that institution and will secure its future. We cannot ignore the fact that the TRL has lost DoT business and is constrained in the public sector as regards competing against private sector suppliers.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, is it not clear that that argument failed totally to convince the four Conservative Members on the committee? I admit that there was division on another matter which made the report a little stronger. But is it not a fact that the Government failed totally to convince the four Conservative members? There was no dissenting opinion on that point.

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, we believe that the proposals to put the TRL into the private sector are absolutely essential. In view of declining business, it cannot continue to operate as it does now in the public sector. We believe that the only option which will satisfy the Government's requirements for future research needs and the requirements of the TRL is to put the institution into the private sector.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, the noble Viscount has not answered the question. If he does not answer it, I must follow up the matter. Why does he believe that the four Conservative members were totally unconvinced by the response put forward by the Government?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, clearly, the committee reached its own decisions; it is the right of the committee to do so. However, we have taken into consideration all views, including those of the committee and the report of independent consultants on the issue. We have reached our conclusions.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, if the only reason for the privatisation of the TRL is that at present it cannot compete for private sector work, why do not the Government introduce amending legislation to free the TRL from those restraints in order to allow it to compete for any work it chooses?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, the important point is that the constraints which the noble Lord mentions exist because of the TRL's public sector status. That will remain while the TRL continues to be an agency. It cannot be right to use public money to compete against the private sector.

Lord Bruce of Donington

; My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that the general public may have some views as to the economics of employing so-called independent consultants on this matter? They practically always come to the view which the Government wish them to.

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, if the independent consultants reach the same view as the Government, then I am extremely pleased. It demonstrates the quality of their research.