HL Deb 30 November 1994 vol 559 cc600-2

3 p.m.

Lord Hooson asked Her Majesty's Government:

When they intend to fulfil the undertakings given by and on behalf of the Secretary of State for Wales during the passage through Parliament of the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994 to issue "guidance" under Section 27(ii) with respect to the proportion and content of decentralisation schemes.

The Lord Advocate (Lord Rodger of Earlsferry)

My Lords, the Welsh Office has established a working group of officials, including officers of both county and district councils, to consider issues relating to the preparation of decentralisation schemes and to help prepare guidance for the new unitary authorities. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales hopes to issue the draft guidance for consultation in February and substantive guidance before the new authorities are in place.

Lord Hooson

My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord appreciate—I am sure that personally he does—that time is important? The draft guidance was issued last January. During the debates promises were made that general guidance would be issued. The transition committees are now meeting but have no general guidance from the Government. Is there any reason for the delay, save that a party—it may be some parties —to the committee to which he has referred is dragging its feet?

Lord Rodger of Earlsferry

My Lords, we all recognise the importance of the guidance being issued. As the noble Lord said, during the passage of the Bill draft guidance was made available and Members of this House were able to consider it. That guidance has also been available to those considering their options over the period.

Nonetheless, a committee was set up. It was difficult to get that under way because, it has to be said, after Royal Assent the county councils operated their boycott until August. It was only after that period that the committee was able to set to work. It has met twice. It will meet again in the first half of December; it will have a further meeting in January. At that stage it is hoped to issue a further, more final draft. We shall certainly have the final version available before the new authorities are in place next April.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, first, I thank the noble and learned Lord for the information that he has given the House. Did I hear him say that the working group has met only twice since the Bill received Royal Assent in July? Secondly, is there an awareness at the Welsh Office that the effect of that very tight timetable to which he referred is severely to weaken the capacity of the unitary authorities to construct workable schemes of decentralisation? Such schemes would have to be put together in a rushed fashion, possibly without adequate thought and without adequate consultation.

Lord Rodger of Earlsferry

My Lords, it is correct to say that the body has met on only two occasions. That is not to say that work has not continued between the meetings of the body, nor that it will not continue between the other meetings envisaged. As I explained, the structures in the Act are already available for consideration. Since earlier this year draft guidance has also been available. Many who are involved and interested in those matters are represented on the working party and are therefore aware of the issues under discussion. It is also true to say that the matters will have to be finalised within a relatively short timescale. However, applications for the decentralisation schemes can be made until the end of the year.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord properly stated that draft guidance was available during the passage of the Bill through the House. Will there be a significant difference between the final guidance and the draft guidance? Why does not the Secretary of State for Wales take a more urgent interest in the matter? Is it because he seeks guidance from other sources?

Lord Rodger of Earlsferry

My Lords, I do not know to what extent the guidance will be radically different at the end of the day. However, it will take account of the many practical issues being raised by representatives of the county councils and the district councils who are therefore able to put more practical flesh on the bones than was perhaps available at an earlier stage. It is precisely in order to gain the input from those councils that such a committee was set up. Therefore we would expect the guidance to be more useful at the end of the day.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, is my noble and learned friend aware, as will be anyone who attends this House regularly, that the Welsh point of view will always be put forward so long as we have present the noble Lords, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos and Lord Prys-Davies, who have the parliamentary means of so doing?

Lord Rodger of Earlsferry

My Lords, although I particularly appreciate the contribution often made by the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, many other noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, is present—when appropriate, put forward the Welsh point of view; and we welcome it.

Baroness Hamwee

My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord accept that, knowing the penalties that the Government can impose when, having set an impossible timetable, the local authorities do not act in quite the way that they wish, the English local authorities sympathise with the Welsh local authorities?

Lord Rodger of Earlsferry

My Lords, I am not informed whether the English local authorities sympathise with the Welsh local authorities. All I can say is that the work is being taken forward in an appropriate way.

Lord Hooson

My Lords, while we are grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his efforts as a temporary, naturalised Welshman on behalf of the Secretary of State, will he please convey to his right honourable friend the great concern in Wales that after the months have gone by no guidance has been issued? An undertaking was given that what was said in debates would be considered; and here we are with no guidance. A transition committee is sitting on which there are representatives of the county councils and district councils. It has no guidance from the Government. The matter should surely be remedied sooner than next February.

Lord Rodger of Earlsferry

My Lords, of course one welcomes the work being done by the transition committee. However, as the noble Lord knows, the decisions on whether to have any such decentralisation scheme, and, if so, which model, will be for the new authorities. I stress that the guidance will be available before those authorities take up their office.

Baroness White

My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that many important schemes and proposals are being held up because the Welsh local authorities have no idea what the position will be 12 months from now?

Lord Rodger of Earlsferry

My Lords, on that specific matter, the authorities will have plenty of guidance before they have to take the necessary decisions.

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