HL Deb 01 November 1994 vol 558 cc761-3

Lord Brabazon of Tara asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will reform the licensing laws to bring the hours during which alcohol is allowed to be sold in large shops and supermarkets on Sundays into line with those during which those shops may open under the terms of the Sunday Trading Act 1994.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Blatch)

My Lords, the Government are considering whether to consult publicly about further reforms of the liquor licensing law in England and Wales, including possible changes in the hours during which shops with off-licences may sell alcohol on Sundays.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reasonably encouraging reply. Does she agree that it is rather strange that, although supermarkets are now allowed to open at 10 o'clock on Sunday mornings, customers are not allowed to buy alcohol until midday? The customers can see what they want to buy on the shelves, which are cordoned off; but are not allowed to buy it, and the shop is not allowed to sell it to them. Does she feel that it is time that there is a change in the law? What is so magical about midday? Why is one allowed to buy a drink at five past 12 and not allowed to buy it at five to 12?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, my noble friend points to at least one of the reasons why my department is considering the possibility of reform. But before it took any legislative steps, it would want to consult on that issue so that if we decide to go forward with any ideas, it will be on the basis of full consultation.

Lord Palmer

My Lords, does the noble Baroness the Minister agree that the situation in Scotland is even more ridiculous? There one can sit in a pub all day but not go next door to the grocer's shop and walk out with a bottle of whisky.

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, the noble Lord is right. But one cannot buy drink in shops in Scotland before 12.30 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is an absurdity to have a different time for the sale of alcohol and for the opening of the shop in which it is sold?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, my noble friend strengthens the argument for at least looking at this issue. One of the difficulties is that even within the retail sector some shops are restricted to six hours opening on Sunday while others are completely unrestricted. Therefore, even if the hours were harmonised with the shops, it would mean that some shops could sell beyond the six hours and others could not do so. It is a matter which needs looking at.

Lord Jacques

My Lords, when she considers this matter, will the Minister bear in mind that responsible retailers usually appoint a person in charge of liquor who knows the law? It is usually a person of experience and strong character who is able to apply the law. Does she agree that if shops are allowed to sell liquor only between 12 o'clock and 3 o'clock, on Sundays when that person is not likely to be in attendance the retailers may feel inclined to give the job to a part-timer on that day? Does she further agree that, if the shopkeeper is allowed to sell alcohol during the whole of the six hours, it will mean that the person responsible will more likely be there in charge? That, in my opinion as an experienced retailer, is a very important consideration. Will she bear that point in mind?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I said that if we were to go further with this matter, there would be a period of consultation. That point would no doubt be brought out strongly during that consultation period.

Lord Dixon-Smith

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend the Minister agrees that it is a passing strange world that we are coming to when, in a matter of a week or two, I shall be able to drive down to the Channel Tunnel, pop through it, make a short trip on the other side, buy five or even 10 cases of whisky, and make the return journey in time to offer my noble friend Lord Brabazon a glass of whisky—when he cannot walk down to his local supermarket to get any.

Baroness Blatch

Well, my Lords, he can between 12.30 and 3 o'clock. But the point is well taken. All the comments that have been made so far in this debate point to the need for consultation on this matter.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, is the Minister aware that some of us are not too encouraged by her reply that the Home Office is "considering" whether to consult? Does she agree that there is something profoundly foolish in a situation in which an area of a supermarket is roped off until the magic hour of 12 noon? It is a wholly absurd situation. Can she indicate that the department is prepared to look into this matter with rather more energy than she has so far suggested?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I note the point made by the noble Lord. But unless one is to be totally unrestrictive and allow the sale of alcohol for 24 hours round the clock, then, even with reform, there will always be a period of the day on Sundays when there will be some restriction on the sale of alcohol. I suspect that when we get into consultation—if we do—there will be a voice given to the notion that selling alcohol on a Sunday for 24 hours of the day will certainly fall foul of many Members of this House and maybe of another place, too.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that in some parts of Scotland it is not a case of not being able to buy alcohol until after 12.30 in the supermarket; it is a case of not being able to buy it all day?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, the noble Lady is right to remind me of that situation. That is the case at the moment; but through the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill it will be possible for harmonisation between shop opening hours and the on-licensing laws which are from 12.30 to 10 p.m.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, in the review that the department is considering undertaking, will it also take account of the even more absurd fact that in England, if one has a wine merchant's or wholesale licence, it is possible to sell wine in amounts of no fewer than a dozen bottles, and beer as long as one buys more than four gallons at one time, all day from 10 o'clock in the morning?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, that is one more point that will no doubt be taken into account in consultation.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House what legislative change would be required to bring about a change in the law? Will it need a Bill, a statutory instrument or what?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, my understanding is that it would need a Bill. There is a technical mechanism using an order-making power under the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill. However, as noble Lords are aware, assurances have been given that order-making powers under that Bill will not be used for anything controversial. I suspect that this topic may well be controversial.

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