HL Deb 05 May 1994 vol 554 cc1215-8

3.22 p.m.

Lord Bruce of Donington asked Her Majesty's Government:

What steps they propose to take in the Budget Council to eliminate from the European Communities preliminary draft budget for 1995 the "excess spending and waste" referred to by the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs quoted by the Daily Express which appeared on 2nd April 1994.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Lord Henley)

My Lords, the Government attach the highest priority to improving financial management in the Community and oppose excess spending and waste. The Government will continue to press for the Council to make full use of its powers under the treaty to ensure that all bids for expenditure are examined with due regard to the cost effectiveness of that spending.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that my reason for examining the answers that have emanated from his department is that apparently the Government have no control whatever over the expenditure of the European Parliament? I observe that he has not in any way disputed the excellent feature in the Daily Express of 2nd April, in which it was stated: Euro Minister David Heathcoat-Amory said the time had come to take the knife to the Parliament's running costs". Is he aware that under the inter-institutional agreement agreed by the Council of Ministers, with the consent of Her Majesty's Government and the European Parliament, the European Parliament can determine its own budget without any intervention or complaint except a bleat from Her Majesty's Government? Can we see a little more guts on the part of the Government at Council level to tackle expenditure which has cost the United Kingdom taxpayer some £177 million over the past three years?

Lord Henley

My Lords, the noble Lord's Question refers to all European Communities expenditure. That is why I answered in the way I did. In his interview with the Daily Express, my honourable friend Mr. Heathcoat-Amory was referring purely to European parliamentary expenditure, as the noble Lord quite rightly said. My honourable friend made it quite clear that it was a matter of concern. It is clear that Conservative MEPs will argue for budgetary discipline in the parliament's spending to cut excess and waste. The European Parliament's budget is subject to exactly the same constraints as those which apply to Community spending in general. It is true that it decides how best to meet the responsibilities placed upon it and it determines its own budget. But it must ensure that its expenditure is consistent with the treaty and with Community legislation, including the requirement for sound financial management.

Baroness Elles

My Lords, will my noble friend accept that much of the expenditure now being incurred by the European Parliament is due to the decision taken at the Edinburgh Summit that the. parliament should continue to sit at Strasbourg? That was contrary to the views of the vast majority of the members of that parliament. Will he confirm that the situation arose entirely as a result of giving in to French pressure so far as the parliamentarians were concerned?

Lord Henley

My Lords, I accept what my noble friend says. I accept also that the current arrangements —namely, meeting in three separate places—are unsatisfactory. But there is no prospect in the foreseeable future of securing agreement by all member states, and we would need agreement by all member states, to move to a single seat.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, did my noble friend see in the press recently an article explaining that the parliament and the bureaucracy were operating in the same environment of socialist job protection as prevailed in this country pre-1979?

Lord Henley

My Lords, I am afraid that I have not seen the article referred to by my noble friend. I am sure that he is correct. As he and no doubt the party opposite are well aware, we have seen major and dramatic changes since 1979.

Lord Eatwell

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is sometimes rather difficult to acquire an accurate assessment of the relative scale of Community waste? For example, how do problems of waste in the Community compare with the extensive waste identified by the Public Accounts Committee of another place? Having examined the behaviour of the British Government, it reported in January: In recent years we have seen and reported on a number of serious failures in administrative and financial systems and controls within departments and other public bodies, which have led to money being wasted or otherwise improperly spent. These failings represent a departure from the standards of public conduct which have mainly been established during the past 140 years". Will he accept that it is clear that the major sources of excess spending and waste of British taxpayers' money are the activities of Her Majesty's Government?

Lord Henley

My Lords, if the noble Lord wishes to table a Question about the report of the Public Accounts Committee, I should be more than delighted to respond to it. As he knows, the Government have responded in great detail to the Public Accounts Committee's report. I should be pleased to send a copy of that response to the noble Lord.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, despite what the noble Baroness said, does the Minister agree that it is still a fact that the European Parliament costs four times as much as the other place and 21 times as much as this House to run? Will he accept that that is excessive expenditure? Does he further agree that we should get much better value for money if we repealed the European direct elections Act and nominated members to the European Parliament? They would be elected representatives —not members of quangos—as they used to be. Perhaps it has been forgotten that we used to elect people to the European Assembly. Does the Minister agree that it would be much better if we did the same again?

Lord Henley

My Lords, in the past we accepted that the European Parliament was more expensive than our own national Parliament. In response to my noble friend Lady Elles I said that it was not helpful or satisfactory that it meets in three separate places but I did not foresee agreement being likely in the foreseeable future. Comparisons between this Parliament and the European Parliament are not very helpful. The European Parliament is a very different institution. It operates in some nine different languages and has representatives from 12 member states. There are a number of other factors which obviously lead to increased costs: translation and interpretation into all the Community languages, the requirement to rent buildings in three different places, and the higher travel costs.

Baroness Elles

My Lords, will my noble friend accept that the proportion of the cost of the other place in relation to a population of 55 million is rather more than the cost of the European Parliament in relation to 340 million people?

Lord Henley

My Lords, I shall not be drawn into the argument between my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart. The European Parliament is obviously more expensive than our own but comparisons between the two are not necessarily helpful in view of the factors I mentioned.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Government should be under no misapprehension as to the attitude of individual members of the European Parliament or their parties, with the exception of Mr. Cassidy on the Conservative side and Mr. Tomlinson on the Labour side? Over the past 10 years no party, neither the Socialists nor the Conservatives and their allies, has ever complained about the Parliament's budget being too high. In short, the whole attitude of the European Parliament in general and of its political groups is that the expenditure of the parliament should be further increased to take account of its new responsibilities.

Lord Henley

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that Conservative MEPs, as I said earlier, will be arguing for budgetary discipline in the Parliament's own spending, designed to cut excess and waste. I invite the noble Lord to consider voting for a Conservative MEP in the forthcoming European elections.