Legal Aid: Fees (Hansard, 29 March 1994)

§ The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern)
My Lords, claims in legal aid cases which are not subject to standard fees are discretionary. Some claims are more reasonable than others. The system of taxation of costs is designed to allow reasonable remuneration for work actually and reasonably done.

§ Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe
My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that Answer. However, does the noble and learned Lord consider that it is now time for the Bar Council to take a grip of the matter and ensure that the taxpayer, and the general public, do receive value for money from leading and junior counsel who are representing clients on legal aid?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, the Bar Council does take seriously matters that relate to unduly inflated claims. Indeed, we have had some discussion with the council on that matter. So far as concerns the amounts actually allowed, as I explained, they are subject to a system of taxation, which is designed to secure that the amount paid by the taxpayer is reasonable, having regard to the work actually and reasonably done.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, did I hear my noble and learned friend correctly in saying, in accordance with what I believe to be the case, that all costs in legal aid which are not otherwise standardised are the subject of taxation by a judicial officer? Is that not part of the independence of the judiciary and an assurance that only proper sums will be paid?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, my noble and learned friend heard me correctly; I mentioned the system of taxation, which, ultimately, is under the control of the judiciary. Of course, there are different levels of taxation. The regulations that the Lord Chancellor is authorised to make in respect of England and Wales have a part to play in that taxation. However, the amounts actually awarded are ultimately decided, where contested, by the taxing authorities.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is it not curious that, in Scotland, the amount paid per civil legal aid case is about half that in England? Can the noble and learned Lord tell us why that is so?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I hear a suggested answer from a friend of the noble Lord that that is as one would expect. However, perhaps it is not right for me to take that particular line. Each case must be determined in the light of what the procedures, and so on, require. It is generally true that there is a difference in level for corresponding work between Scotland and England and Wales. There are many factors that contribute to the situation.

§ Lord Irvine of Lairg
My Lords, can the noble and learned Lord confirm that the vast majority of cases conducted in the Crown court are on standard fees directly set by the Government, and that those fees have now been frozen for the second year running—that is, since 1992?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, it is true that a high proportion of the work carried out in the Crown court by counsel is subject to standard fees. The amount of money which is paid otherwise than by standard fees is a larger amount than the proportion of cases which are subject to standard fees might suggest. That is because the larger sums are those otherwise dealt with through taxation. As for standard fees, it is true that they have been the same for the past two years.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, does the noble and learned Lord believe that it is a good use of public money through the legal aid scheme to give such aid to Gerry Adams? He seemed quite capable of paying a lot of expenses in order to travel to the United States and run down this country.

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, the Lord Chancellor has responsibility for the law and policy in relation to legal aid. However, the decision in any particular case is for the Legal Aid Board, which is subject to statutory rules and regulations made under statute. For obvious reasons, the Lord Chancellor is precluded from intervening in particular cases. Therefore, it was for the legal aid authorities to determine the claim of Gerry Adams. I have no reason to believe that they did not apply properly the statutory criteria to that claim. Everyone is entitled to justice in this country; indeed, it is part of our very wise and, I believe, proud tradition.