Overseas Aid and Arms Expenditure (Hansard, 8 March 1994)

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Viscount Cranborne)
My Lords, excessive military expenditure is one of the factors we take into account when deciding allocations of bilateral aid.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, is the Minister aware that anxieties stretch further than Malaysia? For example, why has Indonesia—which is now the fourth largest third world importer of British arms—seen a 100 per cent. increase in the British aid programme in the past 1337 few years? If regimes of that kind are pursuing repressive measures such as we have seen in East Timor, with all the moves against the population there, how can the Government justify an official government aid programme to such countries?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the noble Lord's experience and expertise in such matters are well known; but I should point out to him that our concern is from a development perspective. The word "excessive" is of importance in that context. Excessive military expenditure should not harm a country's development by, for example squeezing out social and economic spending. The record of Indonesia in economic development is impressive. Part of that may be because the proportion of defence expenditure of the Indonesian budget is at present no more than about 2 per cent. of GDP.
As regards East Timor, I believe that the noble Lord is as well aware as I am of the undertakings which we have received, and of our understanding that there is no proof or evidence whatever that Hawk aeroplanes have been used by the Indonesian Government in order to suppress the population of East Timor.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, whether or not the Hawks are used directly in action against the people of East Timor, the sale of the weapons systems to the Indonesian armed forces gives them the British seal of approval. In effect, we are saying that these are armed forces to which we think sales of weapons from Britain are appropriate. What external defence needs do the Government perceive Indonesia as having when her neighbours such as Malaysia, the Philippines and Australia are all peaceful and friendly?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I refer the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, to Article 51 of the UN constitution which gives any independent nation the right to defend itself. That is why in an earlier answer to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, I emphasised the use of the word "excessive" and its role in assessing our judgment of what is and what is not appropriate in the way of arms sales.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the excessive growth of armaments as part of this country's exports has certain consequences of which he does not seem to have taken note? The consequence of the lethal growth of such exports is to condition our foreign policy. Will the Government therefore give greater support to exports which do not have that effect, rather than our export drive continuing to grow? That is highly unsatisfactory and it contains conditions which we might find onerous and awkward in the future.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, it grieves me very much to have to say that not for the first time the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, and I find ourselves in complete disagreement on a matter appertaining to defence. I can reassure him that the sale of arms does not lead the formation of our foreign, defence and security policy. We are careful to restrict the sale of weapons so that it 1338 does not inhibit our foreign policy objectives. Further, contrary to what the noble Lord said, I believe that the country should take a good deal of pride in, the achievements of defence sales over the past few years. Those sales have contributed substantially not only to employment of many people in this country, but also to the stability of a number of our friends and allies worldwide.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, what is the Government's attitude to the quite appalling level of arms expenditure in third world countries? Does the Minister feel that in view of the level of expenditure, it is for the British Government to advise restraint rather than to increase the arms expenditure by means of the deals about which he has been talking?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I find myself in rather less difficulty in agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, than I did with his noble friend Lord Jenkins. Indeed, that is why I tried to emphasise throughout these exchanges the importance of the word "excessive" as the criterion which we use in judging these matters. I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, that not only, for instance, is the overall defence expenditure as a percentage of GDP so far as Indonesia is concerned no more than 2 per cent., but, for India, for instance, it is about 3 per cent., which is considerably less than the arms expenditure that we have in this country.

§ Lord Ennals
I said "worldwide", not just for Indonesia.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, will the Minister accept that it is extraordinary that when Belgium, Denmark, the US and Canada have cut back on their aid programmes to Indonesia because of the cruel repression in East Timor, Britain has increased its programme by 100 per cent. in the past few years? The Minister uses the word "excessive"; but is he aware that in relation to aerospace last year the Indonesian research and technology Minister was quoted as saying that the Hawk planes would be used as trainers and "for ground attacks"? Does he agree that we are increasing aid at the same time as we are increasing arms sales to a country whose human rights regime is absolutely deplorable?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I merely say to the noble Lord that the Indonesian Government are well aware of our views in these matters. We have made them plain at repeated intervals. We have been given assurances about the use of the weapons that we sell. At the same time I draw the noble Lord's attention to the fact that the Indonesian Government preside over a country whose economic development has been very dramatic over the past few years. That economic development is in itself an increasing encouragement to more liberal policies in terms of government and other matters.