Iraq: Release of Kuwaiti Detainees (Hansard, 30 June 1994)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware, we raise the plight of Kuwaiti and other detainees at the United Nations at every suitable opportunity, including in the Security Council on 17th May. We will continue to do so until Iraq complies with its Security Council obligations to co-operate with the International Committee of the Red Cross in its attempts to gather information on Kuwaiti and other nationals missing in Iraq.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for that very encouraging reply, which will also encourage so very many Kuwaiti people. I know that she is aware that after United: Kingdom forces and our allies, the United States, drove out Saddam Hussein's forces, those Iraqi forces took with them many hundreds of men, women and children, about whom nothing has since been heard. I acknowledge what the British Government have tried to do, and they are well in the fore in their endeavours. Will the Minister agree that other countries must help this country to secure the release of those prisoners—children, women and men —who are now held in Iraq so that they are returned to their home country and that the endeavours of the British Government should now receive the full support of all members of the United Nations?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, the International Committee of the Red Cross is the key organisation in dealing with Iraq over detainees. We fully support its efforts, as we have done all through, and we keep in close touch. A British representative attends the meetings of the tripartite commission—that is, the ICRC, the coalition countries and Iraq—and went to both meetings in July and November last year. Iraq failed to send a representative. But there is to be a further meeting tomorrow; we shall have to see whether Iraq will attend this time, and then decide what next must be done.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, does not the failure of Iraq to comply with United Nations resolutions perhaps cast some doubt on the safety and indeed continued life of some of these persons?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
Indeed, my Lords, my noble and learned friend is absolutely right. There is considerable doubt as to whether some of these persons are still alive and, if they are alive, in what condition of health they may be. But we can only work through the ICRC in this matter. We have urged the ICRC, not only through our regular meetings but also through correspondence with us, to tell us if there is anything that we, as an interested nation, can do to help the ICRC to find these poor people.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, given that the Gulf War ended in 1991, is it not now a matter of the utmost urgency that this issue is pursued? I ask the Minister: is it right to leave this matter to the International Committee of the Red Cross? While recognising the enormously valuable work that that organisation does on these matters, surely it is now a matter for governments to put pressure on the Government of Iraq.

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I sympathise greatly with the noble Baroness when she speaks of the urgency of the matter. But there is some difficulty here. This is not a job for the UN. It is part of the ICRC Charter. It is a task which has been undertaken throughout by the International Committee of the Red Cross. That is really the key organisation and it has had some considerable success.
The difficulty in dealing with someone like Saddam Hussein is that if he decides not to co-operate, it makes it very difficult even for the in-country teams who have done such good work to obtain that kind of information. But we shall make sure that the Red Cross gets every support, as we have done in the past. I believe that we can only pursue this matter in such a way. There is no room for the United Nations to follow it. The ICRC has an excellent track record in finding people, if they are to be found.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, further to the question put by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, can the Minister say how many of these people there are, where they are and in what conditions they are being kept?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
No, my Lords. I regret to say that we do not know. Various estimates have been given to us about the numbers of missing people which vary between a few hundred and over 1,000.I believe that there is nothing accurate in the way of the information asked for by the noble Lord.

§ Lord Ashley of Stoke
My Lords, will the Minister look again at the question put by my noble friend? She rightly said that the Red Cross has a very good record. At the same time, she said that some of those people may be dead or living in ill health. Does she agree that that means on this occasion that the Red Cross has been unsuccessful? Will she accept the point made by my noble friend that the Government should now step in, do what they can and use their diplomacy?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, the Red Cross under its charter has the responsibility for tracking down detainees and finding missing persons. I believe that there is no single government or 864 combination of governments that would have better skills than the Red Cross. The very people to whom governments turn and who have the best expertise in this matter are indeed the Red Cross. In all the international meetings of the Red Cross that I have attended, it is clear that its expertise is the best available.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that, for all the splendid skills of the Red Cross, this is not at all a question of skill but of political pressure of the strongest kind? Will she accept that it is plain, since no one knows who these people are, how many of them there are and Iraq declines to come to meetings, that this is a political matter and should be dealt with in a political way?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, this is a political matter. But, like all similar matters such as Iranian prisoners of war in Iraq or Iraqi prisoners of war in Iran, it has been put to the Red Cross, whose responsibility it is to find them. I shall note what your Lordships have said. There is a genuine concern among us all that these people should be released and repatriated. But there is no way in which a government can positively do that when the people cannot be found: we do not know ourselves where they are, and the real tracking procedure, which has worked successfully in allowing some people to get out of Iraq, is that of the ICRC.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Baroness prepared to consider also the submission, which I believe was made first by Mr. Norman Hogg in the other place, to the effect that part of the agony is that those who are in Kuwait have seen their men, women and children taken away forcibly by Saddam Hussein? They must be living a life of sheer agony. Will she accept that that too should be taken into consideration by the world's international organisations? Will she submit that point as she continues the excellent work that she has been doing up to now?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I note what the noble Lord said. Of course that point is one that is uppermost in the consideration of those in the Red Cross who are trying to pursue this work. But this is no simple matter. We give as much help as we can—and help has been given by the Americans, the French and everybody else who was involved in releasing Kuwait from Saddam Hussein's clutches. We shall go on doing that. We cannot do more.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, further to the question put by my noble friend Lord Ashley, is the Minister saying that despite the failure so far of the International Committee of the Red Cross there is absolutely nothing that Western governments can do about these prisoners? If so, I find it quite astounding. Are we washing our hands of these people?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, the noble Baroness must be realistic. We are not washing our hands of these people. I should like to know where the noble Baroness thinks they are to be found. 865 Obviously she has some information that she has not yet given to the Government. Perhaps she will give it to us and we shall pass it to the Red Cross.