COMMONS AMENDMENTS (Hansard, 30 June 1994)

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 64 to 71 en bloc. These amendments have already been spoken to.

§ Lord Prys-Davies
My Lords, I want guidance on this matter. I am sorry that I broke one of the rules of the House when I spoke after the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, earlier. I wish very much to speak to Amendments Nos. 68 and 69, and I hope that I am correct in my understanding that I can now speak to 895 them. First, I welcome Amendment No. 68 which largely reflects amendments moved by these Benches when the Bill was in Committee in this House. It is right that I should thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate. We thought that he was very receptive to the thrust of the arguments in favour of Merthyr Tydfil that we advanced in Committee. We might not have been successful in re-establishing Merthyr Tydfil and Blaenau Gwent as principal councils had it not been for the Lord Advocate's appraisal of the debate in your Lordships' House.
I turn to Amendment No. 69. I support this amendment because it corrects the slight mis-spelling of the Welsh place name Castell-nedd. I believe that this amendment enables me to return to an issue that I raised when the Bill left this House a few months ago. I then asked the Government to publish a Welsh text of this Bill. I pointed out that the first local government measure, the Local Government Act 1888, had been produced in Welsh. I happen to know that that was paid for by the Home Office. I believe that a Welsh text of this Bill for Wales is important for two reasons. I am very glad to see that the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, is in his place. I happen to know that he has expressed support for a Welsh version of this legislation.
After a gap of about 450 years the Welsh language is once again beginning to be used widely in the drafting of legal documents, the teaching of law subjects (in at least one of the law schools in Wales) and the drafting of delegated legislation. Much good work is being done. However, there are difficulties. Sometimes there is no direct match of meaning when translating. Indeed, this Bill is speckled with clauses that will not be easy to translate. Nevertheless, I believe that a Welsh version would be extremely valuable in developing acceptable Welsh language terminology in a field that has been relatively neglected for centuries. A Welsh language text will help the Government to carry out the policy that they enunciated during the passage of the Welsh Language Bill in 1993. That measure is now in force and the Welsh language is an official language in Wales. I would be grateful if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate could tell us whether the Government had made up their mind to produce a Welsh text of the Bill.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I rise briefly to support what my noble friend has said. Given the underlying policy of the Welsh Language Act 1993, in presenting the Welsh language as an official language in Wales on the basis of equality with English it would be helpful if the Government published a Welsh language version of this important Bill. I strongly urge the Government to think very carefully about their attitude to the publication of a Welsh language text. I believe that it is a mistake for them to maintain a negative attitude to what is in my view a very reasonable request. The Government have shown an important measure of sympathy towards the language in the course of this debate, and I urge them to be positive on this point as well.

§ Lord Elis-Thomas
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, has today excelled at his usual achieve-ment of being able to tie a major issue of principle onto the smallest possible piece of legislation, and I congratulate him. We are, I believe, discussing the insertion of a hyphen in the place name Castell-nedd.
The issue is a substantive one. As the noble Lord very kindly said, I raised this matter by letter with the Secretary of State for Wales and did not receive an entirely negative reply. Therefore, I hope that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will not be too negative in his reply and will leave open the door for the department to produce an authorised translation. Although I am not able in this place to speak on behalf of the authority that I chair, I can certainly say that we will provide assistance in this matter.

§ Lord Hooson
My Lords, I am amazed by and admire the infinite resource of the three previous speakers who, in considering an amendment that concerns merely a hyphen, have been able to put forward an emotional and entirely justified appeal for a Welsh version of this Bill.

§ Lord Swinfen
My Lords, I hope that when my noble and learned friend replies he will say whether, if such a version of the Bill is produced when it becomes an Act it will have any status in a court of law, or whether it will be a work only for guidance.

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I believe that the hyphen has proved to be a useful device on this occasion. Unfortunately,' I have to inform your Lordships that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has decided that the Bill should not be published in Welsh as well as English, although it is a matter to which he has given the most careful consideration. Essentially the reasons are technical and are not to do with a lack of appreciation of the kinds of matters about which your Lordships have spoken. As your Lordships have realised throughout the debates on this Bill, this legislation is by no means free standing but in effect operates by amendment of the existing Local Government Act 1972. Therefore, no Welsh user of this legislation could proceed entirely on the basis of this Act. He would in effect have to use a Welsh translation of this Act and the Local Government Act 1972. This Bill amends the 1972 Act, and to understand what is going on one has to read the two together. For that reason, it does not seem to the Government that the user can rely on the Welsh text. Although this is a very wide issue, I believe that my noble friend has drawn attention to another important matter. The text which Parliament approves, and which at the end of the day the courts will consider, is the English text. That is the text that goes out from Parliament. Although that is a wider issue, that is also the case.
Nonetheless, having been negative, I can tell your Lordships that the Secretary of State is considering other ways in which the Bill may be rendered more accessible to the Welsh-speaking public, for example by the production of summaries of its provisions. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised this matter with me in advance. I was struck by the point that he made 897 to me about the desirability of getting standardisation in relation to technical terms and so forth. That is an example of an area where it may be possible for the Welsh Office to assist. Although it does not go as far as noble Lords may wish, nonetheless it may prove of advantage to Welsh users of the legislation.