Jawad Hashim: Legal Aid (Hansard, 23 June 1994)

§ The Lord Advocate (Lord Rodger of Earlsferry)
My Lords, to date, the costs in the proceedings between Dr. Jawad Hashim and the Arab monetary fund amount to £4,010,367.95. The proceedings are continuing. Therefore, it is impossible to state at present what the final cost to the taxpayer will be. Costs paid by the Legal 415 Aid Board may be recovered at the end of the proceedings through the statutory charge, should Mr. Hashim be successful.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that most disturbing Answer. Is he aware that at a time when economy in public expenditure is rightly being pursued across the board —especially on vital matters such as defence—it is very disturbing indeed to know that so much taxpayers' money is being made available to litigious Arabs?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, as my noble friend will know, where someone is a party to proceedings in the courts in England and Wales that person, irrespective of nationality, is under existing legislation entitled to legal aid. For that reason the person has the right to legal aid. Dr. Hashim has that right to legal aid and he has taken advantage of it.

§ Lord Irvine of Lairg
My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord satisfied that the existing rules enable the Benefits Agency to uncover the true resources of applicants for legal aid who obviously enjoy the most affluent of life styles?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I am aware that there have been press reports relating to the matter. As the noble Lord will be aware, where the supposed assets of a person are the subject of the litigation in question, under the regulations they fall to be disregarded when the matter of legal aid is being assessed. That situation applied in this case. I am satisfied that the powers exist in appropriate cases for investigating people's resources to see whether or not there is concealment. Of course, where there has been concealment, there are proper powers for withdrawing legal aid.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, do I understand that in the event of Mr. Jawad Hashim succeeding it may be possible to get some money out of him, and in the event of the Arab monetary fund losing, it will have to pay?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, if the Arab monetary fund were to lose, then of course costs would follow in the normal way. As my noble and learned friend points out, there is of course provision under legal aid legislation for a statutory charge to be applied in favour of the legal aid authorities whereby they may recover the sums put out.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that some weeks ago I referred to this case without using the gentleman's name and that the answers given on that occasion were not well received? Is the Minister also aware that I made the point during those exchanges that it seems strange that sums of such magnitude can be made available to someone involved in alleged high financial dealings to pay for his defence? I made the point that that can only be done at the expense of people at the bottom of the social scale who 416 should receive legal aid but who are denied it because of cases such as the one we are discussing. When will the Government put this matter right?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, the proceedings in this case have been particularly extensive, and that partly accounts for the size of the sums that have occurred. The noble Lord will be aware that one of the proposals of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor is to introduce in civil cases a system of standard fees that already exists in regard to criminal cases. However, under any such system, provision will always have to be made for exceptional cases.

§ Lord Clark of Kempston
My Lords, if the Arab monetary fund loses the case, does my noble and learned friend think the British taxpayer will have any hope of recovering the money from that fund? Does he agree that this really is a complete and utter waste of taxpayers' money? How soon will the Government change the regulations which seem to operate in favour of these people?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I have no reason to believe that, in the eventuality of the Arab monetary fund losing, it would not be possible to recover the costs in the normal way. As to the other matter, one must remember that our provisions are part of a wider system of international provisions which British people may invoke when they find themselves involved in proceedings in other countries. Therefore, it is not simply a unilateral matter.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is it possible, in view of what has been said on this Question this afternoon, that the department or indeed the Government will wish to reconsider some of the regulations which govern the matter?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I have already indicated that my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has proposals for the revisal of the legal aid fees.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, quite apart from the merits of the particular case or of particular parties, is it not a matter for grave concern that the costs of one party in a case like this could amount to such an astonishing figure? Can my noble and learned friend assure us that the steps—to which he referred—that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor is taking will have the effect of making justice less expensive for British citizens?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I think that noble Lords on all sides of the House will be well aware of the steps which my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor has taken over the years to try to reduce the costs of proceedings. In particular, noble Lords will be aware that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has recently been appointed to chair a committee to look into civil procedure precisely to see whether anything can be done to make procedures less complicated and thereby reduce the costs of them.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord comment on the wording of the original Question? The Arab monetary fund is presumably an intergovernmental organisation. So how can it bring charges against an individual in this country? Are these criminal charges or is this simply loose wording for a civil case?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I would not wish at all to criticise the wording of my noble friend's Question, but the proceedings in question are civil proceedings.

§ Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe
My Lords, will the Minister give an approximate estimate of how much of the £4 million which he has mentioned is involved in counsel's fees and how many counsel are involved?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, there are two senior and two junior counsel. The fees have not been taxed yet; therefore they are not the final fees. In that situation it would not be appropriate for me to give the figures asked for.

§ Lord Desai
My Lords, will the noble and learned Lord assure us that there are no pending cases of the BCCI fraud for which the Government may have to pay legal aid?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I would love to be able to give that assurance but I regret that I cannot as I do not know the position.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, did the noble and learned Lord say that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor was considering standard fees? If so, how will these lawyers live?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, such a system has existed in certain parts of the system for some years. So far as I am aware, there have been no recorded deaths from the existence of that system.

§ Lord Monkswell
My Lords, bearing in mind the huge sums involved—I am sure the Government hope that the individual will be successful and that they will therefore be able to reclaim the money that has been expended—can we have an assurance that, if the money is reimbursed, it will be available to the Legal Aid Fund and will not be used by the Government to give pre-election tax handouts to their rich friends?

§ Lord Rodger of Earlsferry
My Lords, I am happy to give that assurance. It is a charge in favour of the Legal Aid Fund.