Orly Airport: British Air Services (Hansard, 20 June 1994)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish)
My Lords, we are pleased that, following pressure from our Government, air services between London and Orly Airport in Paris started from 13th June. However, the conditions which the French Government have imposed on the route are clearly discriminatory and we are working to secure their removal.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. What do the Government propose to do if the French do not relax those restrictions? Will they take counter-measures?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I do not believe that we should look favourably upon taking counter-measures. However, we are considering taking action under Article 170 of the treaty which will enable us to take the French to the European Court of Justice. Before that happens, the Commission is required to investigate the matter and to deliver a reasoned opinion within three months.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House, especially in view of the rather grave infringement by the French Government, whether there has been any pronouncement from the President of the Commission on the subject? If so, are the Government satisfied with what they have heard from the Commission? Are they satisfied that such opinion as it may have is quite impartial in the matter?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, unlike the noble Lord, I do not keep a scrap-book of the utterances of the President of the Commission, so I cannot honestly answer the first part of his question. However, I can tell him that the Commission issued a decision on 27th April which held that the French authorities should not continue to refuse Community air carriers permission to operate air services between London and Paris, Orly.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, can the Minister explain for the benefit of the House what restrictions continue to be placed on the traffic between London and Orly Airport?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, essentially there are two restrictions. The first is the number of flights allowed per day, which is to be four to each carrier, and the authorities have in fact bracketed British Airways and TAT, which is a French subsidiary of British Airways. The second restriction refers to the size of the aircraft. No aircraft with a seat limit of under 200 passengers will be allowed into the airport.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, can my noble friend tell me whether the restriction on the number of seats in the aircraft to over 200 applies to all aircraft flying into Orly or only those from the United kingdom?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my noble friend asks me a valid question. Of course, if it applied to all aircraft coming into Orly Airport it could not be held to be discriminatory. However, it applies only to those coming in from London. Therefore, it is clearly discriminatory.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, notwithstanding the question posed by my noble friend Lord Bruce of Donington, is it not clear that the Commission has in fact done its duty in this regard? Is there any reason to suppose that it will not continue to do so in view of the complaint which is currently being made by Her Majesty's Government? Further, is the Minister aware that we on this side of the House support the Government in the actions that they propose to take? However, can the Minister explain what implications there are in the policy of liberalisation, which we support and, indeed, which is being tested by the Orly case, as regards the United Kingdom's attitude towards the use of certain airports outside the London area— Manchester in particular—by United States airlines?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, perhaps I may first welcome the noble Lord's support for our general policy vis-à-vis this particular matter about Orly Airport. I can confirm that the Commission acted quite 7 properly; indeed, we support it absolutely in the decision that it took in April. If the matter has to go again to the Commission, we have no reason to believe that it will not take a similarly robust view. On the latter part of the noble Lord's question, I must tell him that the matter of the US-UK air bilateral falls outwith the jurisdiction of the Commission.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister let his imagination loose and venture to give us some opinion as to what the reaction of the French Government would be if we disobeyed the rules as they do?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I am sure that the French Government would be very annoyed if we disobeyed the rules. But, of course, the question is totally hypothetical. As the House knows, we scrupulously obey the rules.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I was not asking him about the role of the Commission? I was asking what implications there are in relation to the liberalisation policy for aviation and for airport use so far as concerns US relations with this country and, in particular, in relation to the use of non-London airports.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the noble Lord's questions go a little wide of the Question on the Order Paper. However, I am glad to be able to tell him that we would be very happy to proceed with negotiations on liberalisation with the United States but, unfortunately, all our overtures and suggestions to them have yet to be met with a reply.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I revert to Orly Airport, to which the Question relates. Can my noble friend the Minister say what is the total loss incurred by British airlines as a result of such wholly unnecessary and wanton restrictions?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I am sorry to tell my noble friend that I cannot give him a figure as to the potential loss incurred by British airlines. Of course, some of the flights that would be shifted to Orly Airport would in fact be flights that currently go to Charles de Gaulle Airport.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, my noble friend spoke of a limitation on the number of seats in planes flying only from the United Kingdom to Orly Airport. Can he say whether those regulations apply to French airlines, and particularly Air France, as well as to other airlines?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, as I understand it, even the French have not attempted to be that discriminatory. The restriction applies to all airlines flying from London to Orly Airport.

§ Lord Clark of Kempston
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that such discrimination would end fairly quickly if Her Majesty's Government were to insist on the same discrimination for French planes coming to this country?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I shall not be tempted by my noble friend to look into a crystal ball on that aspect of the matter. However, as I said earlier, we do not believe that the sensible way to proceed in such incidents is to take retaliatory measures.