Steam Locomotives (Hansard, 26 July 1994)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen)
My Lords, the Government will certainly resist any such regulations if there is any prospect that they will indeed affect steam locomotives. The general UK policy in negotiations on EC health and safety requirements for transport has been to seek to prevent the imposition of any over-prescriptive and unrealistic requirements upon all transport operators.

§ Lord Montagu of Beaulieu
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is he aware that it will do much to assuage the anxieties of many associations and organisations which feared that the regulations would not only damage tourist railways but would also affect road vehicles and also steam driven vehicles on the sea? Does he agree that a good deal of the misapprehension felt by those concerned is due to the complete lack of consultation by Directorate General V in Luxembourg, which does not even bother to acknowledge visits by officials who have gone there to make representations?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for what he said about the Government's position on this issue. We recognise the important role of preserved steam trains as part of our national heritage and our tourism industry. Communication is very 598 important indeed. We believe that the EC had not considered the application of the directive to preserve steam trains.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, for many people, learning to drive a steam locomotive is almost an obsession and that there are always a lot of people longing to learn and to do it not as a job but for pure pleasure? Is it not necessary to give such people an assurance that their pleasure will not be put at risk in the way which has been suggested?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I quite agree with the noble Baroness and I hope that she achieves her ambition. I can assure the House that the Government will protect the legitimate interests of preservation railways should negotiations start again.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is it not a fact that the proposal suggests that all hot surfaces must be lagged and that in order to drive a steam train it is necessary to feel the heat of the hot pipes—I do not know the name of the part where the fuel goes in—

Noble Lords
The boiler!

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I speak as the mother-in-law of an obsessive enthusiast for steam trains. Is it not the fact that you actually need to be able to feel the temperature with your hand, which is one of the features of controlling a steam train?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, my noble friend is quite right and she is an expert on the subject. The intention of the proposal is to protect workers from burns from hot surfaces. That does not necessarily require total insulation. Other forms of protection—for instance, gloves—may be acceptable.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, I hope the noble Viscount will not put fuel into the boiler, but into the firebox.

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, is an expert on this subject and I shall follow his advice to the letter.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, will the noble Viscount and the Government remember that the working party of the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries, of which I was chairman, recommended the siting of the National Railway Museum in York because it had access to sufficient tracks to enable these historic objects to be seen in action?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I note the noble Earl's comments although they are not directly relevant to the subject of the insulation of hot surfaces.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that many of the signalmen employed by Railtrack, and especially their leader, Mr. Jimmy Knapp, belong to the steam engine age, or at any rate to the healthy outdoor life of pulling levers in signalboxes? Would it not be kinder, and certainly more 599 cost-effective, to offer them early retirement on generous terms and to recruit people who are more attuned to the computer age?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I would have lost a bet if no noble Lord had raised that particular subject as regards today's Question, but I did not believe that it would necessarily come from my noble friend. The Question is to do with preserved railways and it is not the correct one for my noble friend to raise the issue of the rail strike.

The Earl of Lindsay
My Lords, will my noble friend stress to his colleagues in Europe that the point made by my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes is a valid one—that is to say, that if pipes are not boxed and lagged they can be checked continuously and properly on a daily basis? Will he also acknowledge that the point made by the noble Baroness was also an interesting one in that the current safety requirements for access to the footplate are extremely strict because it is a specialised workplace? Normally, access is only allowed after a very long apprenticeship and access in any other circumstances is very restricted. Will my noble friend acknowledge that because safety is held in such high regard even people such as myself who actually own operating steam locomotives have to suffer such restraint?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, my noble friend really is an expert on the subject. Indeed, the House will know of his locomotive "The Great Marquess". As my noble friend mentioned, in the case of steam engines safe working practices have been established over many years. We consider that the cost of additional insulation requirements would be very disproportionate to the risk involved.