RAF Squadrons: German Bases (Hansard, 5 July 1994)

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Viscount Cranborne)
My Lords, as the House is aware, we are at present engaged in the Defence Costs Study which has examined all aspects of the support provided to our operational forces, including basing arrangements. We hope to announce the results of the Defence Costs Study shortly.

§ Lord Craig of Radley
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his reply. Are the Government aware that the simple single word "no" as an answer to my Question might have been more acceptable to the House, to our NATO allies and indeed to our ground forces in Germany? In recent years we have considerably reviewed our presence in Germany and elsewhere. Are there any new geo-political factors which now lead the Government to believe that further changes in our deployments in Germany are necessary?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord will be as aware as I am that the Defence 1138 Costs Study has proceeded on two principles: first, that the front line capability of our Armed Forces will in no way be decreased; and, secondly, that within the strictures of that rubric there should be no sacred cows. I would point out to the noble and gallant Lord that considerations of the solidarity of NATO are paramount to Her Majesty's Government. Those considerations must influence any decision about future basing of RAF squadrons in Germany. Equally, he will be aware that last year at least 60 per cent. of all low-flying training conducted by Germany-based squadrons with the RAF took place in this country.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that he ought to be able to give an indication to the House of the extent to which the front line will be preserved by using squadrons of the Royal Air Force? He also ought to know by now the strength of the squadrons. Secondly, what are the views of the American and German governments on either a partial or total withdrawal of the squadrons from Germany?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the noble Lord's distinguished service as Secretary of State for Defence is universally recognised in your Lordships' House. I respectfully remind him that, although I am well aware of what decisions are likely to be announced in the near future as a result of the Defence Costs Study, he of all people would not expect me to anticipate the statement of my right honourable friend in that respect. If I followed him down the path down which he encourages me to go I would be breaking that stricture. I am sure he would not like me to do that.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that, important as front line strength may be in the maintenance of our Armed Forces, there are people who believe that reserves are also necessary?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, as is almost invariably the case, my noble and learned friend puts his finger on a most important point. I can do no more than subscribe absolutely to what he says. It is a sentiment which I expressed myself at my biannual meeting with the TAVRAC council this morning and one with which, I am sure he will not be surprised to hear, it wholly agreed.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, will the Minister clarify his previous statement that the basis for the review is that there will be no reduction in the front line strength? He also said that there are no sacred cows. I assume he means that there will be no reduction in front line strength.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, perhaps I did not express myself as clearly as the noble Lord would have liked me to express myself. I can only reiterate that, subject to the all-important proviso that there will be no sacred cows, we expect to be able to make announcements which conform with the objective very shortly indeed.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that the British people and those of us who were 1139 involved in D-Day and what followed will know how much we depended on the magnificent endeavours of our Royal Air Force? Even the Americans, with regard to the Gulf War, acknowledge that the endeavours of our Royal Air Force made a massive contribution to bringing that campaign to a successful conclusion. Can the Minister please say that there will be no reduction in our Royal Air Force? If there were to be such a reduction, we would be endangering the security of our island home.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I do not know how I can make it much clearer than I have endeavoured to do already, but I shall attempt to do so. I can reassure the noble Lord that when the announcement comes the proviso which my right honourable friend made when the Defence Costs Study was announced will be fulfilled. There will be no reduction in the front line defence capability of the Armed Forces as a result of these studies. We hope that we will be able to do our business better.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that it is an old British custom to wait until Parliament has risen before announcing defence cuts?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, my noble friend's experience of your Lordships' House is rather longer than mine and therefore I defer to her experience in this matter. All I would say to my noble friend is that we hope to be able to make this announcement in good time not only for your Lordships to be able to consider the matter but also to have the opportunity perhaps to hold a debate before the House rises.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, the noble Viscount said that in the review there would be no sacred cows. Is he aware that, even under this Government, cows do not fly? Will he explain a little more clearly exactly what he meant by that ominous statement?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, since we are venturing into the world of the animal kingdom, I am glad that the noble Lord did not talk about pigs flying. He will perhaps excuse me if I ventured into demotic English when I talked about sacred cows. I endeavoured to convey that all matters were open to examination so long as the front line was not cut. I ought to add that we recognise that, in order to be effective, the front line must have effective support as well.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in saying that the front line defence will not be cut he is implying that we are getting rid of surplus capacity? Bearing in mind what happened in the 1930s because of the dangerous cuts in the Armed Forces of this country and what those precipitated, does he not understand that people of my age group, who remember what happened then, are becoming more than a little frightened that we may be approaching that situation once again and that we may be rendered helpless militarily?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the noble Lord is rightly concerned about the defence capability available to this country and I pay tribute to the sentiments that he has often expressed both privately and to your Lordships on this subject. What I must ask him to do, as I must ask the rest of your Lordships to do, is to be a little patient yet and not tempt me down a road which would earn me the opprobrium of my right honourable friend if I were to make announcements before he were able to do so himself.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, will the Statement deal with the replacement or refurbishment of the ageing Lockheed Hercules transport aircraft without which our forces will not be able to get to any front line?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, at the risk of titillating your Lordships more than I would like to, I can say that I know the answer to that question, but that I am unable to give it until I make the Statement in your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, the noble Viscount said that he was well aware of the decisions which have been taken under the Defence Costs Study. Has he had the opportunity of reading an article in the Observer of Sunday 19th June this year quoting senior defence sources? I quote from one senior defence source in the newspaper: 'The Government is also going to keep the issue of the squadrons in Germany separate from the Defence Costs Study … because it is felt that it would be difficult politically to bring back squadrons from a front-line role like Germany while trying to keep up the claim that the front line will be preserved". Is that the view of the Government?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am always very interested in speculative articles in the press from any source. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Williams, reads the Observer with such assiduity. But that article is highly speculative in nature and the noble Lord would not expect me to give an answer prematurely purely based on a hypothetical assumption which is based on an assumed leak or at least a presumed leak. I doubt whether that is something which the noble Lord especially, if he were in my position, would be tempted to answer.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, can we now assume from the noble Viscount that the whole question of the RAF squadrons in Germany will be dealt with in the Statement which the noble Viscount will certainly wish to repeat in this House when it comes?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, again, I am sure that your Lordships and the noble Lord, Lord Williams, will forgive me if I answer him very clearly that he can assume nothing. I hope that all will be made clear in due course. All I can do is crave your Lordships' indulgence in a little more patience.