HL Deb 31 January 1994 vol 551 cc1107-9

2.38 p.m.

Lord Skidelsky asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether the time allowed for modifying the national curriculum and assessment system in the light of Sir Ron Dearing's report and the associated advisory arrangements are adequate for the task.

The Minister of State, Department for Education (Baroness Blatch)

My Lords, yes. We have every confidence that the School Curriculum and Assessment Authority will meet the timetable recommended in Sir Ron Dearing's report.

Lord Skidelsky

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her reply. Nevertheless, does she agree that to allow only three months to dismantle a system which took five years to set up smacks of insane haste? In practice, it is likely to lead to incoherent curricular and testing arrangements, driven through at very high speed by the officials of the authority, which will not command public confidence, will not work, and will therefore not bring about the peace between the Government and the teachers which we all want.

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I understand my noble friend's anxiety. The exercise is, in fact, slimming down the existing orders and modifying the existing 10-level scale. It is responding to the wishes of the teachers that the system should happen very quickly and that the system should be in place by 1995. Sir Ron Dearing has given his word that the work can be done. Each subject order is being done simultaneously which will help enormously.

Baroness David

My Lords, surely, the advisory groups have a great deal of work to do? Can the Minister say that they really have time? Considering all the other mistakes which have been made about the curriculum over the past few years, would it not be sensible to give a little more time, as the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, asked? Have the Government given any consideration to the suggestion made by the Labour Party that the Scottish system of assessment should be introduced, which emphasises the professional judgment of the teacher and the interests of the individual child rather than the publication of school league tables?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I made the point in response to my noble friend that it is a slimming-down exercise of what is already there. It is a simplification of the 10-level scale system which is in existence. It is as a direct response to the anxieties of the teachers that this change should happen very quickly. The work is being done simultaneously across all subject orders. Although it is a tight timetable, Sir Ron Dearing is confident that it can be done and I believe that we must take him on trust. Certainly, the teachers are very involved. As regards the noble Baroness's second question, if she wishes I can give her a copy of Sir Ron Dearing's report because he does address that. very question. He says that the Scottish system would not be appropriate in England.

Lord Elton

My Lords, should we not welcome the willingness of the teachers to pursue this matter swiftly, which is replacing something that will not work with something that they say will work and at a speed which means that there will be no gap between the two and that the children will suffer the least possible disadvantage?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for those comments, which are absolutely right. Not only is the work being carried out simultaneously, but there are also committees which are charged with the overview to make sure that the whole of this work comes together as a manageable package for teachers. To that extent, I am confident that it can be done in the time. It is the teachers' wish that that should be so.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, can the noble Baroness say why the Scottish system is not suitable for England?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, Scotland does not have a national curriculum in the way that England does. The systems are very different and start from a different base. For example, in Scotland there is very much more central prescription in the sense that it is a much more manageable system. It does not have, for example, 25,000 schools comprising about 19,000 primary schools and 5,000 or so secondary schools. The more detailed reasons are in the Dearing report. He gave very serious consideration to that aspect and he dedicates a whole annex to it.

Baroness David

My Lords, are the parents to be involved in the advisory groups? Perhaps the Minister can inform me whether parents are involved as well as teachers and others?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that they are involved. Mrs. Margaret Morrissey, who is the chairman of the National Confederation of Parent Teacher Associations, is involved. I understand that some of her colleagues are involved, too.

Lord Skidelsky

My Lords, perhaps I may draw my noble friend's attention—

Noble Lords

No, ask a question!

Lord Skidelsky

My Lords, I am sorry. May I ask my noble friend to consider the fact that a number of members of the advisory committees have said that owing to the timetable they fear that they will be used as rubber stamps for policies that the officials wish to drive through?

Baroness Blatch

My Lords, no, I am not aware of that. The work is only just under way. We shall have to await the completion of that work, but the advisory committees are working extraordinarily hard and will be the only source of advice for Sir Ron Dearing when he comes to finalise the work.