Transport Research Laboratory, Crowthorne (Hansard, 12 January 1994)

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport announced on 27th May 1993 his belief that the laboratory should be privatised and that he was appointing consultants to advise him on the options for privatisation and their feasibility. He now has the consultants' report and hopes to make an announcement shortly.

§ Baroness Castle of Blackburn
My Lords, perhaps I may echo the congratulations extended to the Minister on his new appointment and also express the hope that he may bring a fresh approach to the matter of the betrayal of the research workers at the transport research laboratory. Is the Minister aware that the consultants' report to which he referred has been in the Department of Transport since before Christmas and that neither the unions nor the general public have yet been given a sight of it, on the alleged grounds that, first, any commercial embarrassments must be removed from it? Further, will the Minister give the House an assurance that no decisions will be taken or announced until this House has had a chance to debate the issue and the unions' views have been sought on the consultants' report?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I must tell the noble Baroness that it is not for me to say whether or not the House debates the matter. However, I can give the noble Baroness the assurance that we will not take final decisions until the unions have been consulted again. When they are consulted, they will have had a chance to see the report, although I have to 117 say that those parts of the report which are commercially in confidence will have to be removed before the report is seen by the unions.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, does not the transport research laboratory enjoy a justly deserved reputation for its independence—its independence from government, too—its objectivity, its ability to take on research projects on a long-term basis and the fact that it works efficiently? Why meddle with the situation? Why put all that at risk? Following the establishment of the laboratory as an agency, why was it not given the three-year working period which was promised by the Government before any question of privatisation arose?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the research laboratory has a fine record of achievement, but I do not consider that that record of achievement will be in any way lessened by it being in the private sector. The record of research and development facilities in the private sector is every bit as good as the record of the public sector. We further believe that the laboratory would be able to compete more fully in the private sector than it can at the moment as part of the public sector.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, why does the Minister not recognise that it is not only a question of the laboratory's efficiency and ability to work effectively, but that it also has a reputation for objectivity and independence from government, and it is this which is causing a great deal of concern not only to the workers but also to many who have taken advantage of the work of the laboratory in the past?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I do not believe that an institution in the private sector which works efficiently and well and has a high reputation cannot be considered to be objective in the same way as an institution which works inside government is considered to be objective. However, I must say that that consideration does not apply to every department of government when and if it suits the Opposition.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, following on the supplementary question just asked by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, is it not a possibility at the very least that major, publicly owned research establishments which can take a long-term view of research could, if privatised, tend to take a much shorter term view because that could yield greater profits?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I do not agree with the noble Lord. After all, the institution, whether it be in the public sector or the private sector, can only take a short, middle or long-term view depending on the kind of contract it receives, and the contracts received by the research laboratory at the moment will be those available to it to compete for when and if it is privatised. I do not see that long-term contracts will be removed from it after privatisation, if that is the road we decide to go down.

§ Lord Eatwell
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that no independent scientific advice has been taken on the future of the laboratory and that the report to which he has referred was compiled by a firm of accountants?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I do not know what advice the accountants took, but many accountancy firms are used as consultancy firms not just by government but by many people in the private sector, and they have a fair range of experience within them. Where they wish to seek expert advice outside, those firms can of course seek it. I do not join in the slightly denigratory suggestion the noble Lord made as regards accountancy firms.

§ Lord Eatwell
My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether any independent scientific advice has been taken in this case?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I believe I told the noble Lord I was not aware of exactly what advice Peat Marwick had taken from outside sources.

§ Lord Monkswell
My Lords, will the Government advise the House whether there are similar institutions in other European Union countries and whether those similar institutions are in public or in private hands?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I understand that there are similar institutions but I cannot answer the specific question as regards whether they are all in public or private hands. I certainly know that some of them are in public hands, as is the institution in this country that we are discussing.

§ Baroness Castle of Blackburn
My Lords, is the Minister aware that one of the most serious drawbacks of privatisation is the fragmentation of work, and that in this case what we shall have is a series of little, ad hoc, short-term pieces of research from private companies when what the Minister requires—and what I obtained from the road research laboratory when I was Minister of Transport—is a co-ordinated assessment of the different bits of research coming in? We still need that assessment; indeed, we need it now more than ever.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I am well aware that the noble Baroness has a somewhat maternal view of this institution because I believe I am right in saying that she opened it when she was a Minister. However, the matter of whether an institution can look at a project as a middle-term or a long-term one depends entirely on the project. The matter of whether this or any other institution can take a long-term view depends entirely on the contracts that are put out by government. I have little doubt that government will still require from their advisers—wherever they are—long-term planning arid long-term research arid development work.