HL Deb 11 January 1994 vol 551 cc65-7

2.44 p.m.

Baroness David asked the Leader of the House:

Whether the working party proposed by the Procedure Committee at its meeting in July and discussed in the House on 13th October 1993 has yet been set up by him, and if so when it will report.

The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham)

My Lords, the working group has not yet been established. I hope that it will be established in the relatively near future, and that any proposals it may make may be considered by the Procedure Committee and by the House before the end of the Session.

Baroness David

My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord said "the end of the Session". Does the Leader of the House really think that that is a good way to carry on? It seems to me quite extraordinary that the Procedure Committee should make a suggestion in July and yet nothing will be done about it until the end of the Session. Is the Leader of the House aware how much we suffered, particularly on the Education Bill, from extended sittings until two, three or four o'clock in the morning? We are about to reach the Committee stage of various Bills and we hope that there will be a more sensible policy so that the revising Chamber, which this House is, can do its work properly. I believe that this is an extraordinary state of affairs.

Lord Wakeham

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that the original recommendation from the Procedure Committee was made in July, but it was not approved by the House until October. Since then I have had discussions with the House authorities and with the leaders of the other parties to find a clearer idea of what will be the most fruitful way to proceed. It is important that we should give proper consideration to the best way to proceed. We need to protect our flexible procedures and the good sense which is applied to them. It would be a mistake to rush into something too quickly. A little preparation would be valuable.

Baroness Serota

My Lords, have the terms of reference of the working group been decided and has the membership been agreed in the usual way?

Lord Wakeham

My Lords, the terms of reference have been decided but the membership has not been. I wish to discuss the matter with the leaders of the other parties and with the Convener of the Cross Benches to find the way forward which is most acceptable to everybody.

Lord Barnett

My Lords, will the Leader of the House consider a degree of flexibility in our rules of procedure? The proposition should be put to the Procedure Committee that there may be occasions when two short debates, which would otherwise finish extremely early, should be allowed to continue longer.

Lord Wakeham

My Lords, I know that this matter exercises a number of your Lordships and the Procedure Committee has considered it before. It is certainly a matter which the Procedure Committee can consider again; and I shall see that it does so.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that it is the very consideration which the noble Lord has laid before the House that lies behind the idea of having a working party? Is it not wise that the working party should consider those matters to which the noble Lord referred at the earliest opportunity so that it may be in a position to accumulate the evidence and experience to put before the Procedure Committee? Surely there should be no undue delay in the working party commencing operation.

Lord Wakeham

My Lords, I do not believe that there has been any undue delay. I agree with the noble Lord that those are important matters. However, it seemed to me—and in my discussions with the leaders of the other parties, I believe that it seemed to them—to be sensible to ask for a paper from the House authorities on some of the issues which have been discussed before so that we can identify those areas in which your Lordships feel that improvements could be made. Therefore, the working party would have a basis for its initial considerations. Any suggestions which noble Lords may wish to make to the group will be extremely welcome. We want ideas as to the best way forward. We certainly do not want delay, but we do not wish to rush these matters. We want to do a proper job.

Baroness David

My Lords, the Leader of the House said that the terms of reference had been decided, but they do not appear in the Procedure Committee's report which came before the House in July. Perhaps the noble Lord will tell us where we can find those terms of reference.

Lord Wakeham

My Lords, I shall check as to whether I am correct about that. Whether or not the terms of reference have been formally agreed, I envisage them being as broad as any of your Lordships would wish them to be. There is no matter of procedure which would be outside the terms of reference as I envisage them. This matter should be considered in the light of lessons arising from the Jopling Committee report in another place. That report identified ways forward but they proved to be more difficult to put into practice than was thought at the time. I do not wish the committee to waste time producing a report which has no basis of acceptability for your Lordships. It is important that such matters are given proper consideration.

Baroness David

My Lords, am I right in understanding that the terms of reference will be sent to me in the form of a letter?

Lord Wakeham

My Lords, it could be done within an hour. Would that suit the noble Baroness?

Baroness David

My Lords, perhaps it could be done later in the week.