Computer Disks: Violent Material (Hansard, 23 February 1994)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, the police in Cleveland have seized a computer disk called "Jolly Roger Cookbook III". They are considering, in consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service, what action to take under the existing law.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. As this floppy contains instructions on how to make drugs, how to kill people, how to make explosives and how to con cash machines, is it not time for this kind of material to be made illegal? Will he consider seeking reciprocal arrangements with the United States in an effort to have it cut off at source?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, it is precisely in order to see whether this particular computer disk is illegal that discussions are taking place at the moment. My noble friend will realise that it is an offence to import obscene material and the customs do seize computer disks periodically. The law is being tightened up very much in this area, particularly under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill which is at the moment before another place.

§ Lord Clark of Kempston
My Lords, if it is proved that such videos are not illegal, cannot the Government take action to make them illegal?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, it is not a video; it is a computer disc. Videos are not exempt from classification. It is not desirable to impose a system of pre-censorship and classification on all computer disks, the vast majority of which are harmless. However, the matter is being looked at.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is there not a general difficulty in law here? Obscenity is not necessarily what this Question is about. Supposing I were to describe in detail how to make a bomb. I do not believe that many people would consider that obscene, but does my noble friend agree that it would be a highly undesirable thing for me to do?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I agree with my noble and learned friend. It would be highly undesirable and, if I may say so, highly unlikely. The law on obscenity also 626 covers violent material and works which promote the unlawful use, for instance, of controlled drugs. Obscenity is not just sexual obscenity.

§ Lord Howell
My Lords, we are pleased to learn from the Minister that there is an effort by the Government to tighten up the law on these matters. However, since we have passed the relevant legislation, particularly as regards satellite broadcasts from outside this country, it is quite clear that we have no control over all the filth which is being beamed into this country? Does the Minister agree that we should review these matters with a view to putting ourselves in charge of what is happening on our television screens as a result of these videos?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, how television is dealt with is a separate matter from this particular problem which relates to computer disks. I can assure your Lordships that considerable action is being taken in the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill. Obscenity offences and child pornography offences will be made serious arrestable offences. The Bill will extend the law to cover simulated child pornography which is manufactured on a computer. It will clarify the law in relation to other child pornography which is stored on a computer. It will extend the duration of search warrants for child pornography from 14 days to 28 days and, in addition to the current fine of £ 5,000, will impose a custodial sentence on those convicted of possessing child pornography. The maximum prison term is being increased, as are the powers of trading standards officers. We have also tabled amendments to the Bill to extend the Obscene Publications Act to cover the transmission of electronic data from one computer to another.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, welcome as this indication of the Government's anxiety and activity is, does my noble friend agree that the sheer volume of material now being produced is such that there can be no effective direct supervision or indeed classification of it? Does he further agree that what is needed is, first, an international convention to control this vile material at source under the laws of the countries in which it is produced and, secondly, continuing vigilance by Her Majesty's Government? Does he accept that the report of the Select Committee of another place on computer pornography, which came out about three days ago, is already being outdated by rapid developments in technology.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, my noble friend is right. There is a large quantity of this kind of material. It is becoming increasingly difficult, with the advent of computers, to control it. What one can do is make it an offence in certain cases for people to transmit various items, whatever the method of transmission may be. The fact that they do so may mean that they are contravening the law. It is another matter finding those people and gathering sufficient evidence on which to produce a criminal prosecution.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, since it is generic to computer disks that they are, first, easily copyable and, secondly, easily transmissible down telephone lines, is it not possible to devise a block or a code to prevent those two undesirable activities happening?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, we are getting into the realms of high technology. I do not know whether I am the best person to reply. My immediate response is that, although it may be fine to put a block on one particular thing, it is not easy to construct a law that would enable you to put blocks on the things you want to put blocks on without putting blocks on the things you do not want to put blocks on.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will the noble Earl confirm that the Metropolitan police have a very competent unit to deal with such offences and that the unit works in co-operation with police forces throughout England and Wales?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, yes. The noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, is right. The police have a very efficient unit and are concerned, as, I think, everyone is concerned, to make certain that that which is obscene or improper should not be transmitted. Of course, one has to weigh that against the business of free speech and control over such matters.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, when the Criminal Justice and Public Order Bill comes before this House, will the Government consider embodying in it some, if not all, of the recommendations of the Select Committee of another place on this matter?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the Select Committee reported only yesterday. I think that my noble friend would agree that to give an immediate and affirmative answer to that question would be going pretty fast, even by the Government's standards. However, I can tell my noble friend that we are considering these matters carefully and will take such action as is necessary.