Mr. Christopher Campbell: BR Post (Hansard, 22 February 1994)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish)
My Lords, Mr. Campbell has been appointed as vice-chairman of the British Rail board with the main responsibility of overseeing the disposal to the private sector of all BR's non-passenger businesses.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, accepting the Government's word for what it is, is it still the Government's intention to help to retain the integrity of our national railway system; and, if so, could that not have been included in the criteria for appointing the vice-chairman of British Rail, bearing in mind the rumours that are abounding in the press?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I suspect the rumours abounding in the press which the noble Lord mentioned relate to a report in the Guardian this morning about a document which I suppose was found in the usual brown envelope which seems to turn up here and there. I must disappoint the brown envelope purveyors, and I hope please the noble Lord, by saying that the document in question will be deposited in the Library later this afternoon. Then the noble Lord will be able to see that our only intention is to return as much of BR to the private sector as we possibly can in the certain knowledge that that— and only that— will improve the service to the customer.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is not this the appointment of an extremely able man, admirably suited to the difficult job which he has been given? Will my noble friend indicate Her Majesty's Government's complete confidence in him, and their rejection of the implied criticism in this Question?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my noble friend gives me the opportunity to do just that. I am always slightly surprised when I hear criticism when first-class people are appointed to jobs such as this. I often wonder whether people who supposedly have the 511 — — railways' interests at heart would prefer second-class people. Mr. Campbell is first-class; he has a first-class background, and he knows exactly what he is about.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, in his reply the Minister indicated that one of the remits of Mr. Campbell is to return parts of British Rail to the private sector. Where did they come from in the first place?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the Answer I gave was that his specific task would be to oversee the disposal of the non-passenger business of British Rail to the private sector. The objectives of the Act which was passed recently are to do just that; namely, to return as much as possible of BR to the private sector.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, the Minister has not answered my question. He specifically repeated that parts of British Rail would be returned to the private sector. What if parts of it were never in the private sector?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I believe that we are beginning to split hairs. If the noble Lord would prefer me to say that the object is to place as much as possible of British Rail in the private sector, then I shall say that. But as some of it originally came from the private sector, if not most of it, then I believe "return" is an appropriate word.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the description "first-class" is subjective to a large extent? The Minister placed great emphasis on that. Does the Minister recall that noble Lords were told on a number of occasions that the chairman of the Welsh Development Agency was first-class; that the chairmen of some of the regional health authorities were first-class? And we know what happened to them!

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, ' the noble Lord should not move from particular to general cases. Mr. Campbell has an excellent background. He has been involved in a number of privatisations over the past eight or nine years, and before that he had a distinguished career with Debenhams. I hesitate to add this because the last time I mentioned this occupation, your Lordships did not think that by definition it made him first-class; namely, that he is a chartered accountant.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is the Minister aware that conferring an accolade of that kind by this Government must cause Mr. Campbell a great deal of anxiety? Was it not the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, who was similarly described by the then Prime Minister one day before he departed office? Does the Minister agree that this appointment is wholly in keeping with the thesis which was set out in an advertisement by this Government in the Sunday Times for a railway regulator, where his qualifications were described as: Knowledge of railways or public transport an advantage but not essential"? 512 Is it right that Mr. Campbell has in fact no knowledge of railways other than when he was managing director of Hardy Amies and they were designing uniforms for British Rail employees? Is it not also a fact that, as usual these days— or is so frequently the case— Mr. Campbell is a card-carrying member of the Tory Party?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I cannot comment on the latter part of the noble Lord's question because I simply do not know if he carries a card for any party or no party. I say to the noble Lord that if one made appointments only on the basis of one's experience of the various subjects one is to be made responsible for, I certainly would not be responsible for aviation and shipping, and I doubt very much whether the noble Lord would have been made a Commissioner of the European Commission.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that— thank God! — he does not actually run any of those himself? Bearing in mind his confidence in Mr. Campbell and privatisation, will he guarantee that when Mr. Campbell has finished, we shall have a cheaper, more punctual and a much more comfortable railway service as a result of his activities? Will the Minister guarantee that?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I am certain that Mr. Campbell will play an important part in doing just that. He will be part of the team which will ensure that the railways we have in the future will see the same kind of improvements that aviation has had since the introduction of competition and the privatisation of British Airways.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, will the Minister accept from me that I implied no criticism of Mr. Campbell, although other noble Lords seem to have taken the opportunity to criticise him? As usual, the noble Lord who suggested that I was criticising has got hold of the wrong end of the stick. If the Government are still intent on preserving the integrity of the national system of railways which we have always boasted about, whether under private or public ownership, why are they intent on divorcing a local railway system, which has a catchment area of almost 2 million customers, from an immediate connection with the Channel Tunnel?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the noble Lord has moved away a little from the specific Question as regards the appointment of Mr. Campbell. However, the existence of Railtrack ensures a degree of integrity in the system, if the noble Lord actually means physical integrity. The adjacent railway franchises, while they may not be under the same franchisee, will have a close interest in co-operating to make sure that passengers can move from one area into another in the most effective and comfortable way.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, will the Minister ask Mr. Campbell to try to establish a link between the Channel Tunnel and Liverpool?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I am not sure that Mr. Campbell would have taken on the job if 513 he had thought that he would be responsible for Liverpool. Mr. Campbell's responsibilities are largely for the non-passenger portion of the railways. The noble Lord's question is a little wide of the original Question.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, perhaps I may press the Minister still further on the question of the Channel Tunnel link. The Question that I tabled originally is not the same as that on the Order Paper. It was to ask the Government on what criteria they appointed Mr. Campbell. I am now asking the Minister on that criteria whether he can give a reason why a catchment area of 2 million people is being divorced from the Channel Tunnel link. If the Minister cannot answer me, I shall ask Mr. MacGregor later today.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, if the noble Lord tables a specific Question on that issue, I shall certainly answer it.