British Youth Council

HL Deb 08 February 1994 vol 551 cc1529-50

4.48 p.m.

Baroness Lockwood rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what plans they have for the future development of the British Youth Council with particular reference to its international work.

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in asking this Unstarred Question, I should like to refer to the excellent work of the British Youth Council. I must say at the outset that, at a time when we have so much youth crime and hear so much about the misdemeanours of young people, it is good to look at some of the excellent work being done by young people—work which contributes to the well-being of society at both a national and international level.

The British Youth Council is a democratic organisation representing the views of a large number of organisations affiliated to it. The interests of these organisations cover religion, education, politics and recreational and vocational activities as well as covering the activities of some of the more traditional youth organisations such as the scouts. Historically, however, the British Youth Council was established by the Foreign Office in 1948. It began life as the British National Committee of the World Assembly of Youth; that is, the British contingent to a worldwide youth body which developed out of an international conference in London in 1947. The conference brought together youth representatives from all member countries of the newly-established United Nations and was addressed by the then Foreign Secretary, Ernest Bevin. So in effect the British Youth Council was established primarily to represent British young people on various bodies at international level. The committee I mentioned had as its primary function this international work. It is still a major part of the work of the British Youth Council.

Since 1948 the British Youth Council has been the representative organisation for young people in the United Kingdom at world, Commonwealth and United Nations level, and since the 1970s at Council of Europe and European Community level. In the development of its international work over a period of some 50 years a range of activities have been provided. Opportunities have been provided for young people to attend seminars, conferences and language courses and to take part in international meetings. Since 1948 it has been funded by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I wish to ask the Government this evening why it is that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has decided to discontinue the funding of this organisation and how it sees the continuation of these important international activities which have been carried out by the British Youth Council.

We are not talking about an insignificant body. We are talking about a body which has a high reputation in the international affairs of young people. The British Youth Council has been at the forefront of the development of world co-operation among young people of all nations. It has participated in the World Assembly of Youth, and other conferences, throughout the period during which it has received funding from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. There have been bilateral exchanges with other national youth councils going back to the 1950s. The first exchange was with the Indian Youth Council. The British Youth Council has been involved in seminars and conferences around the world on themes such as human rights, anti-racism, international co-operation and development, and it has participated, and still participates, in the CSCE process; that is, the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe.

Latterly the British Youth Council has developed links with Eastern and Central European countries through the 1970s and the 1980s. Within the past year the British Youth Council has participated in no fewer than 36 youth activities at international level. That includes the World Assembly of Youth meeting in Malaysia. It has been involved in a fact-finding visit to the Ukraine. It has hosted visits from the Slovenian Youth Council and the Zambian Youth Council. There have been exchange visits with the Danish, Austrian and Portuguese Youth Councils. There have been seminars on anti-racism, in particular an important one that was held in Berlin. There have been courses on international youth structures in co-operation with the Council of Europe.

Every year, through the work of this council, a large number of young people gain new skills and experience. Throughout the past 12 months more than 140 places for activities of an educational and inter-cultural nature have been provided for young people. These have included language courses, training seminars, fact-finding visits, conferences and various political meetings. The BYC has enjoyed a high profile internationally and is now one of the most respected national youth councils in Europe. It currently holds the presidency of the council of European national youth committees and is well represented at EC and Commonwealth level. It is looked to as an international leader in the youth field and over the past 18 months it has received visits from youth ministers from New Zealand, Malta, Spain, Pakistan and Malaysia. In particular, strong links have now been established with the emerging democracies in eastern and central Europe.

All this indicates the excellent work that the British Youth Council has done in the international field. But it also has a high reputation in the national field, as many Members of your Lordships' House and Members of another place are aware, having been associated with, or members of, the British Youth Council. Currently it is funded on the following basis: 30 per cent. comes from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to cover the international activities; 30 per cent. comes from the Department for Education to cover specific projects nationally; and the remaining 40 per cent. comes from members themselves—that is, the member organisations—from trusts and from sponsorships.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office grant, which amounts to £42,000 a year, represents just 0.001 per cent. of the FCO's budget for the year 1993–94. That is an insignificant amount to the Foreign Office but for the British Youth Council it is a vital 30 per cent. of its total income. It is the income that finances the kind of activities I have outlined. I understand that the grant will be paid in full for the current year, 1993–94, and that in 1994–95 there will be a grant of £15,000, which is, in effect, a transitional payment.

The purpose of my Question is to ask why the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is taking such a mean decision at a time when it is so important to foster international relations and so important to bring members of youth organisations together. The value of that work is recognised by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The Foreign Secretary, Douglas Hurd, said on 3rd November 1993: The British Youth Council has done and continues to do admirable work". But he went on, Given all the pressures on my budget, however, I have concluded that I cannot continue to support the British Youth Council with Foreign Office funds". While the Foreign Office clearly recognises and respects the work undertaken by the British Youth Council, it seems to have no awareness of the implications of that withdrawal of funding. Without the funding the youth council's work will collapse in a number of areas.

The Foreign Office suggests that much of the work that is now undertaken internationally can be covered by reimbursement from the European Community. That is not the case. I understand that at present flight costs are paid for by the European Commission in some cases, but that amounts to only 7 per cent. of the youth council's budget for international work. The bulk of its international expenditure is on the participation of young people in the EC, the Council of Europe and other decision-making structures. Those activities are not easily fundable through sponsorship.

There is no doubt that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has a responsibility to ensure that this work continues. It has indicated to the British Youth Council that the world has changed much since the 1940s and 1950s. Of course it has. We all recognise that. But what has not changed is the need for co-operation and inter-cultural learning and development between and among the young people of the world. Her Majesty's Government must take some responsibility to ensure that this work can continue.

If the Foreign and Commonwealth Office says that this is no longer to be its responsibility, there remains a responsibility on the British Government as a whole. If the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is going to shift the responsibility in the long term, I should like to know what measures it will take to ensure that the British Youth Council has the necessary means to maintain its international work until such time as an alternative arrangement has been agreed.

This is an important matter. It rests on the miserly sum of £42,000 per annum. But the end result of that expenditure is not only good will towards the United Kingdom; it is also the opportunity for the youth of this country to play a leading role in international affairs.

5.4 p.m.

Baroness Hooper

My Lords, I am happy to support the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, in pressing this Question. Nobody would disagree that young people should be aware of the issues facing decision-makers in today's world, issues that will affect their future lives and enable them to exercise their rights with due regard for the responsibilities that those rights carry with them. That is especially true in the international field. Given ever-increasing communications, as well as our commitments under a variety of treaties and agreements, not least of which are the European Union and the Council of Europe, that means that future generations will increasingly need to know and understand their peers in other countries. Therefore, activity in this area is of great importance since we are contributing to the education and understanding of our future leaders.

The British Youth Council does a good job in raising the awareness and interest of young people. The noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, outlined its role more than adequately. Therefore, I need not add any great detail, except to say that on the international front I was particularly pleased to learn that, in addition to the many events and involvements outlined by the noble Baroness, in the past year the BYC was represented in the UK delegation to the first Commonwealth Youth Ministers' Conference, that it hosted a meeting of the Youth Forum of the European Communities in Manchester and has participated in a range of bilateral exchanges with other national youth councils. I was also pleased to learn that a previous vice-chairman of the British Youth Council was elected as president of the Council of European National Youth Committees. That must be a good thing and shows our commitment to international understanding and good will.

It is in terms of Europe that the British Youth Council has done a particularly commendable job as a member of the Youth Forum of the European Communities. Again, the noble Baroness outlined its functions very well.

As I know only too well from my work in the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, this is an area where the world does not stand still, particularly in the new Europe, which of course includes the countries of central and eastern Europe which are struggling to meet the demands of pluralistic democratic systems and the new openness of their government systems. Therefore, it is money well spent to prepare young people for the tasks and responsibilities that face them.

It is also essential that young people in this country should make and maintain contact with their counterparts in the wider Europe, not only to be able to help them in the present but also to ensure that in the future they avoid making the mistakes that were made in the past. That is particularly important where racism and xenophobia present a danger.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, was tactful in phrasing her Question in that it refers to plans for future development. In reality, as she explained, what we are talking about is funding. The question of funding is a difficult one. No body or organisation has a right to government funding indefinitely. We all know that often successful voluntary organisations are seen to be the victims of their own success in that the Government feel that once they are up and running they should be able to find funding elsewhere. I recognise that there is a need to review existing programmes regularly and also that there are always changing priorities for any government. I know that many other voluntary youth bodies are concerned and uncertain about their future in the same way.

No doubt I shall be corrected if I have it wrong, but I believe that it was Disraeli who said that it is upon the education of our children that the future of our country depends. I hope therefore that in reaching their decision on future funding the Government will give full consideration to the record of achievement which the British Youth Council can point to, as well as to the importance of its task. I trust that the views expressed in today's debate will have an influence on government thinking. I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply.

5.11 p.m.

Baroness Williams of Crosby

My Lords, there is little that I can add to the eloquent and informed speeches of the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood—the House will be grateful to her for raising the issue of the future of the British Youth Council—and the noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, who has drawn on her experience of the European Union and her work in the Council of Europe and elsewhere.

I wish to make three points. I hope that the Minister will consider carefully what is said because the sums involved are tiny and, in my view at least, the return that we gain for those sums is immensely greater than the investment made.

First, the British Youth Council represents an amazingly broad spectrum of youth organisations. It involves virtually every religious organisation, including the Union of Jewish Students, the British Council of Churches, the Catholic Youth Service, the Young Christian Workers and many others. Indeed, it covers virtually the whole spectrum of religious belief in this country and draws together organisations in an interdenominational commitment to work for young people.

Secondly, it draws together the political parties. The various parties have contributed to the British Youth Council and work within it. Indeed, at the present time Members of this House and of another place, including at present at least three Ministers, have been closely associated with its work.

No one can point to the British Youth Council as representing a particular religious or political opinion as against those of other groups in the community which have something to contribute. I refer your Lordships to some of the organisations which belong to the council: the National Federation of Young Farmers Clubs, the Student Christian Movement, the Student Tory Reform Group, the Union of Jewish Students and Young Christian Workers. I could go on. The organisation represents every constructive, hardworking and constitutionally minded youth organisation in the country. The remark of the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, that we ought to be supporting constructive work among young people rather than discouraging it was an extremely well taken point.

The organisation has a small budget and, as the noble Baroness pointed out, is dependent upon one third of its budget, £42,000, coming from the Foreign Office and a substantial further contribution from the Department for Education. However, one of the striking facts to underline is that the British Youth Council in most cases has access only to project related funds. The Department for Education's £50,000 in the budget is entirely for project related spending. It therefore cannot be used for the purpose of representation at international conferences or on international organisations. Only the Foreign Office money can be used at the present time for that purpose. That is why it is so important that a relatively small sum should not be withdrawn.

I believe that the Minister and the Foreign Office should carefully consider the timing of the proposal. At present we are seeing a stormy, difficult and in many ways problematic move towards democratic societies in countries as different as those in central and eastern Europe, South Africa, the Maghrieb and in other parts of the world. The striking facts about many of those countries, specifically South Africa and the Maghrieb, is that their populations are overwhelmingly young. To take the example of one country, Algeria, where a battle for democracy continues, I think I am right in saying that more than half its population is under the age of 18. The same is true of South Africa. Yet the very organisation which is accepted worldwide as representing the voice of this country, its traditions and contribution will be silenced at the moment when we are experiencing the struggle for democracy in those young countries. I cannot think of a worse time suddenly to silence a voice so representative, broad and strikingly tolerant as that of the British Youth Council.

One of the associates of the British Youth Council is the Northern Ireland Youth Council, an interdenominational body. At a time when Her Majesty's Government are involved in delicate negotiations seeking to bring about a new settlement in Northern Ireland, that body is of immense value. In all its work, that organisation represents the ability of different denominations and faiths to work together.

I hope that the Minister will listen closely to the points made in this brief debate and will recognise that it is not a partisan debate but one infused with and driven by the desire to see this country represented in the fora of the world, in particular those related to young people—the most volatile group and at the present time the most open to influence. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will reconsider the decision. I suspect that the matter may not even have reached his desk before the decision was finally made.

5.16 p.m.

Lord Northbourne

My Lords, I put my name down to speak to the Question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, because I was a member of Sub-Committee C of the Select Committee on the European Communities in your Lordships' House at a time when we took evidence in connection with young people in the Community. We were much impressed by the evidence given by the British Youth Council.

I ask the noble Viscount one question. Why this cut? Why this cut rather than some other cut of £42,000? I have seen Her Majesty's embassies across Europe. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office sees fit to spend very large sums of money on establishing British prestige across Europe, and in my view rightly so. Surely £42,000 could be found somewhere within that budget. The sum must be less than the cost of keeping a third secretary in post. Surely there is a third secretary tucked away somewhere in Ruritania who could go so that we can keep this project which is important for the prestige of the British people, British youth and British youth work within Europe. I speak only of Europe. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, spoke of the work of the council in a wider context, which is equally important. It is the voice of this country in the youth councils of the world.

I can envisage only four possible reasons why the Government are considering cutting the grant. Three are good reasons and one is bad. Perhaps I may first consider the good reasons. The first is that the job is not an important one. I have tried, as others will, to contend that it is an important one. The second is that if the job is important, the British Youth Council is not doing it well. If that is the reason, I suggest that it should be told so, and, if necessary, the grant should be given to others so that they can do it well. The third reason is that, if the grant is withdrawn, the task will continue to be done. That would be a good reason, but I believe that the onus of proof is on the Minister to show that that would occur.

The fourth and bad reason is that the cut may be an example of the philosophy which runs something like this: if cuts must be made, make them at the easiest place; cut the grants to external organisations and maintain the jobs for the boys at the centre. The Government have pilloried local authorities for doing just that. I believe that it would be very wrong if they allowed that to take place in one of their own departments. Therefore, I ask the Minister to tell the House in his reply whether the reason for the cut is for one of the three good reasons or for the fourth reason.

5.20 p.m.

Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede

My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend Lady Lockwood. In many ways, I do not have very much to add to the eloquence of many noble Lords who have spoken already in the debate.

We have heard that the British Youth Council has received support for the past 40 years. I believe that it was only in November of last year, with no warning at all, that it was told that its support was to be completely withdrawn. That was a peremptory withdrawal, although I believe that it has been reviewed to a certain extent so that the council is being given some time in which to consider obtaining alternative funding from other sources.

The transitional amounts to which my noble friend Lady Lockwood referred are sufficient only to pay the affiliation fees to the Council of Europe and will not meet any of the revenue costs; namely, the day-to-day running costs of the British Youth Council. The council is already putting in hand measures to make some of its staff redundant in the light of that impending cut.

I was amused by the final point made by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, when he referred to local councils making cuts. I have some experience of that and I must say that they are carried out in a similar manner. A local authority may say that a group is doing excellent work but that the authority itself is under pressure. That is a euphemism for saying that it needs to save money. The authority then gives no further justification for the cut. That is an extremely unsatisfactory argument. If the FCO is under pressure, then it must be making choices. I believe that it is incumbent upon the FCO to justify those choices. It is not sufficient to congratulate an organisation on the one hand and to cut its funds on the other.

I wish to conclude by quoting the words of Raja Gomez, who is a former director of the Commonwealth Youth Programme. He said: I hope that BYC will be able to maintain its high profile in the coming years. If not, an important part of British and Commonwealth contributions to the youth community in the world at large and Europe, in particular, could be lost". We should think about the message that we are sending, in particular to Europe. I have heard from a number of interested parties that it is causing a certain amount of dismay on the part of our European partners that we are making that cut in funding at a time when we are supposed to be moving towards greater co-operation with Europe. I hope that the Government will see fit to review their decision about the funding for the BYC and will return to the House with the results of their deliberations.

5.24 p.m.

Baroness Brigstocke

My Lords, I too rise to support the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood. I speak as chairman of the English Speaking Union of the Commonwealth, which is trying to promote international friendship and understanding through the use of the English language. It does that by means of scholarships, exchanges and a wide programme of events. Our youth programme in particular fosters links all over the world.

Of course I understand the Government's duty to monitor rigorously any grant that they make and I applaud their determination to get value for money. But I question their judgment in this instance.

I wish to say a few words about value for money. The sum involved is £42,000 for 1993. I understand that that would be roughly the cost of two middle-ranking secondary school teachers who between them might have an influence over, at most, 500 teenagers.

That is the money; what about value? What value does the British Youth Council give in return for its grant? It affords access to Europe and beyond to all the youth organisations-in the United Kingdom. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, gave the names of several of those organisations. The list is endless: local groups and clubs, scouts, girl guides and boys' brigades. The council is the youth council for the United Kingdom in international fora. It has represented the UK on the youth forum of the European Union, as it now is, and the Council of Europe since the 1970s and on that of the Commonwealth and the United Nations since 1948. It is through that council that its member organisations have access to education and training opportunities that many would never have dreamt of. For example, it may well be that a member of the Boys' Brigade is more likely to be awarded a place on a course than, for example, the president of the National Union of Students.

The English Speaking Union is very grateful to the British Youth Council. The ESU is now setting up exchanges in Eastern Europe; for example, in Poland and Hungary. Last April the director of that programme was enabled, by the British Youth Council, to attend a training course on how to organise international youth events and exchanges. It took place at the European Training Centre in Strasbourg. The cost of the 10-day course and the accommodation was funded by the Council of Europe. The ESU gained access to that course through the British Youth Council.

The ESU is starting to bring over young people from Eastern Europe; for example, as a researcher for a Member in another place or to work in the BBC or an oil company. Educationists and industrialists are always talking of the need to let young people, the workforce of the future, become fluent in languages and to be aware of the world beyond. It seems incomprehensible that we should cut that small grant which provides many extremely important educational and training programmes.

As a teacher, I should like to think that what I teach in the classroom is the most important element in a pupil's education; but it usually is not. What is most important is what goes on outside the classroom. In the United Kingdom we are devoting a great deal of money, resources and legislation to giving our children the best possible education and training opportunities. Foreign travel and training are a crucial element of that and the British Youth Council gives excellent value for the small amount of money it receives from the Government.

In conclusion, I should like to read your Lordships a short excerpt from a letter that I received yesterday from Professor Gabor Fodor, who is a professor at the University of Sciences in Budapest at its department of philosophy. He is also president of its human rights committee. In this instance he is talking about the English Speaking Union exchange programme but what he says applies equally to the British Youth Council. He writes: I am convinced that international initiatives such as yours will greatly contribute to the formation of a more skilful and responsible political leadership of the future".

5.30 p.m.

Lord Hayter

My Lords, would it not be fun if we could wave a wand and if noble Lords and noble Baronesses who are to speak today allowed instead their eldest son—or, as the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, would say, their eldest daughter, were she available—to speak for them. The Foreign Office would know what youth really thinks about a move made against continuing support that has been given for so long.

I thought at first that the sum must be £4 million; if so I could understand the Foreign Office view. But it was not. It must therefore be £400,000; it was not. It was £40,000 —which, as most noble Lords who read their newspapers know, cannot quite support four girls at Roedean. So why have the Government done this?

Perhaps the Government feel that they have done enough: that there is full employment for youth in this country; that all are adequately housed one way or another; that all are educated, particularly for Europe; and that every child can speak one or two European languages as well as its own. The Foreign Office can therefore look back with pride over the past 40 years and say, "We have done enough," and we would understand.

What in fact has happened? I shall not go into statistics on the employment side. We know that youth is often on the bottom rung. On the matter of housing, I quote: Clustered around the despairing aspect of urban life is a growing underclass of vagrants of whom one-third are between 14 and 29. No caring society can be content when an increasing number of its young live in such circumstances". Those words were spoken by Mr. Heseltine in 1990 and are pretty well true today.

I turn to education. Like my noble friend Lord Northbourne, I sat on the European Communities Committee in relation to young people in Europe. The noble Lord did not say it; I shall. The more I heard about the education given in this country compared with that in Europe the more ashamed I felt. It is fantastic that among the young in the UK general awareness about Europe and its opportunities is lower than elsewhere anywhere in Europe. As for ignorance of languages, we are all aware of the friend from Denmark who can speak English so much better than we can and who can speak German and French as well. Again, we are very ashamed.

There are exchange visits. It is vitally important that our young people should know what Europe is like and what the Commonwealth is like before it breaks up. That is part of education. There is need for co-ordination. The same committee on Europe asked the Government to give evidence. Our report stated that some 15 to 20 government departments were represented. The reason for that curious figure is that sometimes one element was represented, sometimes another. There were officials from a wide range of government departments.

The report specified that 10 out of the 12 European countries have a Minister for youth. The UK and Italy do not have one. Noble Lords should not think that I am getting at the Government. At the last general election no party made any reference at all to co-ordinated policy so far as youth is concerned.

The catalogue of mistakes can only be solved, and has partly been solved, by the British Youth Council. I lost count of the arious associations embraced by the British Youth Council. I got up to 78 in its annual report and then gave up.

I make four general points. First, investment in youth is always worth it. Secondly—and I look around the Chamber as I say it—we are all getting older. It is perhaps selfish but it is also common sense to realise that we depend on our youth and will do so more the older we get. Thirdly, this is a competitive world. It is vitally important that the youth of our country should be educated and go into vocational training and also that they should be educated about Europe. Fourthly, we are in Europe and we have to make the best that we can out of it.

It is my guess that the youth of this country would never forgive the Foreign and Commonwealth Office if, having established the British Youth Council in 1948, it gave up support for it today. I do not want to exaggerate the position. I am sure that much of what the British Youth Council does in this country will continue—perhaps at a lower level, but it will continue. However, it cannot undertake the wonderful work that it has been doing unless it has support. My question to the noble Viscount is a very simple one. Would he agree with me (I do not think that he will) if I re-write the remark of the Foreign Secretary in November 1993, which has been referred to, to read, "The British Youth Council has done and continues to do admirable work. Given all the pressures on my budget I must make economies elsewhere and will continue to support the British Youth Council."

5.36 p.m.

Lord Dormand of Easington

My Lords, I shall be interested to hear whether the Minister has any criticism at all of the work of the British Youth Council. If he does not, I assume that the sole reason for withdrawing the grant to the council is that the Government cannot afford to give such a sum. I repeat a point made many. times. We are talking about £42,000 in the current financial year. That is a tiny fraction of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office budget for 1993–94. We have had some splendid examples from previous speakers. We were told that a third secretary would command that sort of money, as would a couple of middle range teachers. I find it impossible to believe that we are seriously debating whether a government department can provide such a sum. I am no financial expert, but if the noble Viscount can arrange to let me loose on the FCO accounts, I guarantee that I would find £42,000 without hurting anybody at all.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brigstocke, made a very important point about value for money. I would have thought that this Government above all would support that. But, with great respect, I say that that is not really sufficient. If, for example, we had been debating a sum of £100 million, then the Government would be bound to take that into consideration. But we are not talking about that kind of money. We are talking about what the Americans would call peanuts. That is my contribution to the various names that have been given to it. It becomes even more ludicrous when it is set in the context of the manner in which some other sums of government money are being spent. Last week, some of us questioned the Government on the expenditure on advertising for grant-maintained schools. That sum was £200,000. Some of us would say that that expenditure is on a policy which by normal criteria has failed miserably. We need not go into that matter now. But that is what many of us think. And one could give other examples.

Let us contrast such expenditure with the work done by the British Youth Council over the years. It has been comprehensively spelt out, not only by my noble friend but by other speakers, and I shall not repeat it. The British Youth Council was established by the FCO in 1948 and has received grant-in-aid since the 1950s.

At that time I was a voluntary youth worker. I had established two youth clubs and spent much of my spare time running them. At that time my colleagues and I felt that the FCO's action in establishing the BYC was not only a major step forward but far sighted and enlightened. It was certainly regarded as a great boost to the work being done in the youth service at that time. I remember that I was very proud indeed because I was very active in the Labour Party and it was a Labour Government who had introduced it. But I do not want to introduce a political element into the debate because, to their credit, the Government have continued with the splendid work that has been done since 1948.

If anything should be regarded as international in character it is surely work that is done by and for youth. It gives great satisfaction to many people that the British Youth Council is held in such high regard throughout the world. It may be said that it is looked upon as a leader in the international youth field. Previous speakers have already mentioned that in detail.

Recently I asked the council whether it was doing anything in regard to the new situation that has arisen in the former Soviet Union and eastern Europe. It seemed to me that this was not just a golden opportunity but an essential step to take if we were to help those emergent democracies in their very difficult task. The answer was that strong links had already been made. That was very good news indeed. But obviously such co-operation is now in jeopardy. It is a platitude to say that those young people are the adults of tomorrow but in today's dangerous world we forget it at our peril.

I had a virtually parallel experience of what we are discussing tonight when last year I led a parliamentary delegation to Mauritius. The delegation was concerned to learn that the British Government had stopped helping the young people of Mauritius to come to Britain to study. Every Minister from the Prime Minister downwards pressed us to try to have that decision reversed. They said that the value of such links to Britain—not only to their own young people but to Britain—could not be overrated. It was even more frightening to learn that the vacuum created by that withdrawal of help has been and is being filled by France, which is not even a Commonwealth country. I am a fervent supporter of the Commonwealth. If British Youth Council visits to Commonwealth countries are curtailed or even stopped, as appears will be the case if the grant is stopped, it will be a serious setback for further relations with the Commonwealth.

I should be glad if the Minister in his reply would indicate whether any representations have been received on this matter from the Commonwealth Secretariat. If not, I earnestly request that discussions take place as soon as possible. As parliamentarians, I trust that we all welcome the fact that the British Youth Council brings the issues most affecting young people onto the political agenda. The current level of youth unemployment is twice that for the over-25s and the Government's youth training guarantee is manifestly failing in some parts of the country. Those are just two of the important issues which have been raised by the British Youth Council in the past year.

I would not accuse the Government of wanting to stifle the council's legitimate actions in such matters, but they must know that the reduction of an already restricted budget must inevitably affect its work. One of the strengths of the British Youth Council is that it works in close co-operation with other organisations dealing with youth issues. They have all been mentioned tonight and it is worth repeating that fact. I am sure that the Minister not only recognises that but approves of it. In that way its work has undoubtedly been made more effective.

I also hope that the Minister recognises that there is a self-help aspect in the BYC organisation. I am glad to see that the Minister nods and I assume that he agrees with me. The Government quite frequently say that people come with a begging bowl without making any efforts on their own behalf. That certainly does not apply to the British Youth Council. As he probably knows, the council undertakes a range of activities to raise money for its work. However, it is quite impossible for it to raise sufficient for even its basic needs. Nor should that be expected, because of the nature of its work. That is why it properly receives money from the Department for Education and the Prince's Trust. I understand that the noble Baroness mentioned that during her contribution.

The BYC has said that without the FCO's grant its international work will collapse—"collapse" is the BYC's word. It sounds rather dramatic but when one considers that there will be a massive reduction in worldwide opportunities, with the removal of BYC as a leading member in the international field and much lower participation in its work in western, central and eastern Europe, then perhaps collapse is not too strong a word in the context of this special activity.

I conclude by asking whether there can be anything more important than the development of our youth. Investment is a word that is frequently used in both Houses of Parliament, sometimes without having its real meaning placed upon it. That cannot be true when we refer to young people. To a considerable degree we can guarantee that there will be a return on the money and resources allocated to our youth. This debate should have been about increasing the sum granted to the BYC, but we are discussing the ending of the grant. There might have been some tiny justification for a reduction had we been discussing a very large sum of money. That is a point which I made earlier. It cannot be justified when we are talking about £42,000. I hope and plead that the FCO will think again on this matter.

5.47 p.m.

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, I offer my credentials to speak on this subject as a former honorary president of the BYC, a job that I gave up two or three years ago. I used to say that I was the Saga Holidays' representative on the council of the BYC. I enjoyed my time there, which I found very stimulating. It was a very impressive organisation. I have no doubt that the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, will be extremely pleased, as will the BYC, at the support that she has received from all around the House this evening on this important subject. We, and the BYC in particular, are all grateful to her for raising it.

There cannot be much to add after having listened to people with so many different credentials from so many different parts of the House speaking on this subject. But perhaps I can just speak about my experience. I have to admit that there were good years and bad years at the BYC; but then the BYC is a democratic organisation and the people who are elected to the top of that organisation are not necessarily of the same calibre year on year. I should, however, like to pay tribute this evening to the work of the General Secretary, Mr Graham Hitchen, who has done a superb job of running the organisation since he took over a few years ago. At that time it was in considerable difficulty as a result of a reduction in funding by the Department for Education, which pulled the rug from under it in the same way that the Foreign Office is now doing, only rather more precipitately. Since then, as we heard, the Department for Education has been giving project funding; but all the core funding went at once with virtually no warning. At that time the BYC was crassly handled by that department of government.

At that time I attended a number of meetings and spoke to officials from the Foreign Office who came along to their annual or six-monthly meetings. I quizzed them and asked whether there was any suggestion that the Foreign Office would withdraw its funding. They said that there was no suggestion of that at all. They were delighted with the work that was done and said that it was very good value for money. They said that the Foreign Office had no intention of reducing its funding. It did not reduce its funding but kept it static for the next three years, which meant that there was a reduction in real terms. Nevertheless, the Foreign Office has continued to pay the kind of money that we have been discussing.

Now, suddenly, things have changed. I feel a little sorry for the Minister because it is not his department and he is being shot at from all sides. All I say is that I hope he will be able to go back to the Foreign Office and express in clear terms—as I am sure he will—the strong passions that the matter aroused in your Lordship's House this afternoon. Incidentally, he could offer £42,000 from his own defence budget, which I do not think he would miss. However, I doubt that he will do that.

What is to happen? We are told that there is to be sponsorship and we must look for sponsors. Does anybody have any idea of the kind of sponsors that should be sought? Perhaps British American Tobacco or the Honda car company could be asked. One can imagine delegations attending international conferences wearing those labels and seeking television rights for showing them. The idea of obtaining outside sponsorship for a delegation of British youth going to international conferences is bizarre.

One feels the sticky hands of the Treasury behind all this. We know that in the past there have been references from certain extreme ends of the Conservative Party, particularly the Young Conservatives, to the British Youth Council as being a rather Left-wing organisation. I should like to say that that is no longer true. I wonder whether the Chief Secretary of the Treasury still regards it as being a communist organisation when we see previous leaders include such people as the noble Lord, Lord Hayhoe, Mr. Alan Haselhurst, Mr. Nicholas Scott and Mr. David Hunt—all well-known revolutionaries perhaps in the eyes of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury !

One can joke about those things, but it is a serious matter. Are the youth of this country to be represented at international meetings in the future in the way in which they have been in the past? If so, who will attend and who will pay for it? Or shall we send civil servants instead? That will be far more expensive. Shall we not send anybody? That would be even more expensive.

As has been stated throughout the length and breadth of the Chamber this afternoon, it is quite clear that this country —never mind the Government—has been receiving extremely good value for money in funding that aspect of the British Youth Council. I should like to quote a little more from the letter mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede, from Mr. Raja Gomez, who is now director of administration of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, although he says in his letter that he is not speaking as an official of the CPA. He says: I am happy to place on record a personal statement of my understanding of BYC's international work and the importance of adequate funding to the maintenance of that work. These comments are, of course, based on my close relationship with Youth Councils and similarly placed organisations during my tenure of office as Director of the Commonwealth Youth Programme (1984–1992)". Mr. Gomez says that it is BYC's international work which took it to the front line of youth affairs. In other words, it is its international aspect that gave it its strength for what it does in this country as well as what it does abroad. He says: This is recognition indeed given the very great strength, especially in terms of resources backing them, which many European Youth Councils possess, especially those of Scandanavia"— which, of course, provides huge funding compared with what comes from this country. Mr. Gomez goes on to explain some of the things that he has seen. As we heard recently, BYC's representative to the Youth Forum of the United Nations played an extremely important part in the meeting held in Vienna which he attended, and he endorses what was said earlier this afternoon. He continues: I am aware that BYC's position in youth affairs has resulted in [its] becoming a regular port of call for Ministers and Chief Executives from a variety of Commonwealth and non-Commonwealth countries". Who will receive those visitors in the future when BYC cannot afford to buy them a cup of tea or provide offices in which to receive them? There are so many aspects to the matter. People come in from outside; people go out from here; information is passed into our youth movement. That is perhaps another important aspect that was not stressed enough in our discussions this afternoon; that is, that part of the education process is on an inward basis. The noble Baroness, Lady Brigstocke, probably came closest to the point. There is a lot of flow of information from the youngsters who are learning all the time what it is to be part of an international community; who are learning how to be the leaders of our youth organisations and eventually of our other organisations.

I mentioned some of the people who in the past were associated with the BYC and who are now in politics. Of course, there are others, not only in politics but in industry and the professions. They first had their taste of standing up and debating, meeting and learning, through the activities of the BYC and its international contacts. I cannot believe that the Foreign Office is so stupid as to totally cut off funding; but that is what is happening. Can the noble Viscount tell the House why? I hope that he does not come back with a collection of platitudes saying what a wonderful organisation it is but that the Government cannot afford to pay for it. That simply cannot be true.

5.57 p.m.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, we are indebted to my noble friend Lady Lockwood for introducing a debate on this important and serious topic. I had the pleasure and privilege of serving on sub-committee C of the Select Committee on the European Communities, along with several other noble Lords who have already spoken, when she was in the chair. We produced our report—Young People in the European Community— in 1991 and it was debated by your Lordships. However, the situation of young people does not seem to have improved since then. If anything it is giving rise to even more concern. I agree with everything that was said in that respect by the noble Lords, Lord Hayter and Lord Northbourne, both of whom were members of the Select Committee.

I agree also that the committee was impressed at the time by the evidence given orally by the British Youth Council. Its membership seemed to us to be very representative of young people. They made a point of the fact that it is an organisation for young people run by young people. In fact, if anything, they were rather critical of the European Youth Forum because that organisation tended to be run by professional youth workers and European politicians. The BYC is an affiliate of the European Youth Forum and at the recent meeting it was said that its delegation was the only one in which everyone was under the age of 26.

In 1991, when we asked the BYC at the oral hearing what its members thought was the major problem for young people in Europe, the answer was unequivocal: it is unemployment. During the past year the BYC has produced a publication which has been widely praised, called The Time of Your Life. In that publication the BYC sought to identify some of the problems faced by today's young people. In particular, it focused on unemployment. It told us in 1991—and things have not improved since then—that youth unemployment is twice the national average. It told us that 150,000 young people between the ages of 16 and 19 experience homelessness; that 72 per cent. of under 24 year-olds earn less than the Council of Europe's "decency threshold". Even those young people from the more disadvantaged areas of society who are employed are often in low paid, dead-end employment.

The BYC provides a forum for discussion and debate of issues concerning young people. In addition, it performs an extremely useful lobbying function through which the views of young people can be communicated to government and to Members of Parliament. Indeed, the Prime Minister himself has spoken highly of the BYC, saying: I am well aware of the valuable work of the British Youth Council in representing our young people". As we have heard from a number of noble Lords, the BYC has a very high profile internationally. It was clear from the submissions made on behalf of the BYC to the Select Committee that the council was well aware of the challenge of the single market. Its representatives expressed great concern that young people in the UK were under-informed about the EC compared with young people in other EC countries. They felt that our young people would lack the appropriate skills to be able to benefit from the opportunities which the EC might eventually offer. As a result, the BYC has been concentrating on training activities and has been running a series of international training and education events—run for and by young people—and has produced a series of publications aimed at providing the information and resources needed.

In 1991 the BYC identified what we on the European Communities Committee at that time came to regard as the "vicious circle" syndrome—at least as far as the most disadvantaged young people are concerned. First, there is the deprived home background, often as a result of parental break-up and/or family unemployment; then come poor levels of attainment at school; then unemployment on leaving school with low academic attainment; then homelessness if the young person has left home—sometimes willingly, sometimes because the family refuses to continue to provide a home; continued unemployment because of the lack of an address; and deprivation, from which it appears impossible to break away.

The BYC has attempted to highlight these problems and has campaigned for something special to be done to enable such young people to break out of this vicious circle. The BYC, however, is well aware of the fact that the problem is of international dimensions. It has sought through its international contacts, particularly in Europe, to develop an international strategy to try to cope with the seemingly intractable difficulties. Over the past 12 months, as we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, the BYC has organised or participated in 36 youth activities at international level. Through the BYC more than 140 educational and other inter-cultural activities have been provided for young people in the past year. These have included language courses—which are very important, as a number of noble Lords have emphasised—training seminars, fact-finding visits, conferences and so on.

The BYC has received funding from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office since 1948 but it has never been very much. At the moment the £42,000 which we are debating today is simply peanuts. In fact, it represents 30 per cent. of the BYC's income. It is a lot to the BYC but in terms of grants available from the Government it is very small indeed. A number of noble Lords have mentioned the wide range of support for the BYC from Church organisations and sports organisations. There is also the involvement of trade unions. My own trade union, MSF, is a member of the BYC. It has received support and information from the BYC which has enabled it to establish its own youth section and to bring out its own youth charter, with a good deal of emphasis on training and opportunities for young people. The BYC has a number of associate members, including Save the Children Fund, of which I am a council member. It has a great deal of support from all areas of society and from all kinds of organisations.

However, the cutting of the very tiny grant will have a devastating effect on the work of the BYC. The organisation has said that it will result in the collapse of the BYC as a leading player in the international youth field and with that a much lower profile for the UK within international youth structures. There is likely to be a far lower emphasis on European and international issues within youth work in the UK and a considerable decrease in liaison and partnership with youth organisations in eastern and central Europe. This latter point is very important. Many of the states in eastern and central Europe are currently passing through a high degree of social turmoil. It is necessary for them to build democratic structures from scratch. I have had something to do with that on the trade union side and I know just how difficult it is. Help from organisations with experience of democratic structures and organisation, such as the BYC, is very important in assisting new organisations to get off the ground. With its very long history the BYC is admirably placed to do this kind of work. Instead of being able to develop such work it is having to face a cut in its minuscule grant. This is occurring at a time when a diminution of funds is most inappropriate.

I am informed that there seems also to be a reduction of funding generally in regard to voluntary youth organisations in London. I am told that the reason is that partnership arrangements between the Department for Education and the London Boroughs Grants Committee, the development grant and the National Voluntary Youth Organisation schemes all cease or are due for review or renewal after three years. The London Council for the Voluntary Youth Service expects reductions of around 66 per cent. over the period 1993 to 1997. I raise that point in this context because, although it has nothing to do with the BYC, I wonder whether there is a general drive to reduce the amount of funding for youth work. If that is the case it is extraordinarily shortsighted. What will happen? Who will do the work? Where will the funding come from for the necessary work in the future? I await with interest the Minister's response.

6.7 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Viscount Cranborne)

My Lords, I want to begin by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, for raising this important Question and thanking all other noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. For the Government Front Bench spokesman it is perhaps painfully obvious that this subject concerns your Lordships very greatly. I have certainly been much struck, as so often when listening to your Lordships, by the depth of experience of this matter in this House. I think in particular of the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, my noble friend Lady Brigstocke and other noble Lords —the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, because of his past distinguished connection with the BYC and other noble Lords in the context of their connection with the work of Sub-Committee C, which reported on this and other issues.

I wish to associate Her Majesty's Government and myself with the encomiums made on the admirable work undertaken, both nationally and internationally, by the British Youth Council. That work was referred to by all noble Lords but perhaps particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, and my noble friends Lady Hooper and Lady Brigstocke. As the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, pointed out, only recently my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs paid a similar tribute in another place.

At the outset I should like to answer directly the question addressed to me by the noble Lord, Lord Dormand of Easington. As far as I am aware, no Commonwealth representations have as yet been received on this matter by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. It may well be that there are some in the post but none, so far as I am aware, has yet been received.

Perhaps I may very rapidly speak my own book. I hope that the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, that my department should contribute the sum of money concerned (£42,000) was no more than a joke, and in poor taste. As your Lordships will be aware, even that relatively minimal sum might be the straw that broke the camel's back of even our budget. As the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, acknowledged, the Government have indeed provided financial support for the international work of the British Youth Council for many years and for its predecessor, the British National Committee for the World Assembly of Youth, since 1948.

My arithmetic is certainly a victim of the British education system, but perhaps I may point out to the noble Baroness that £42,000 out of £165,923, which is represented as the income of the British Youth Council in the year 1992–93—perhaps this is carping—is a little nearer a quarter than one third of the total. However, I reassure your Lordships that the decision to phase out this funding was taken clearly, after serious consideration of the issues involved. In answer to the representations made by your Lordships this evening, I should like to come back to that in a little greater detail in a moment.

There has been a particular foreign policy reason for funding the BYC's international activities in the past. We felt that it was important to ensure in particular that properly representative and democratic—this is a point which has been made many times about the nature of the BYC —youth organisations were present to exert a moderating influence in certain international youth fora. But it has perhaps become a truism to say that times have changed. The Berlin Wall has fallen and totalitarian regimes no longer hold the power which they once did in the countries of the former Soviet Union and eastern Europe. Happily, the BYC's role in that regard must change as well. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, in particular pointed out the importance of the work of youth organisations in eastern Europe under current circumstances.

The nature of the work has changed. We therefore had to conclude that to continue funding on the former basis was no longer justifiable. That at least in part addresses the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby. I believe that he said something like, "We congratulated while at the same time withdrawing".

Nevertheless, there is no reason why the BYC should not be able to continue much of its activity in the European Community and in the Council of Europe youth fora. That is a part of its work to which again the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, gave considerable emphasis. After all, as I believe has been pointed out in your Lordships' House this evening, both organisations will continue in part to pay for them to do so.

The British Youth Council receives government funding through the Department for Education scheme for grants to national voluntary youth organisations to promote the personal and social education of young people. It also receives some additional and most welcome assistance from private sponsors, in particular, as I believe the noble Lord, Lord Dormand, pointed out, from the Prince's Trust and the Baring Foundation, to give but two examples. Its activities cover a wide range of issues from homelessness, to unemployment, the environment, education and so on. Noble Lords who have spoken this evening know a great deal more of the detail than I do and therefore I shall not weary your Lordships by repeating something which you already know well.

The relationship between the Government and the BYC has parallels in most European Community member states, again as the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, pointed out. I believe that there is a varying degree of government funding of those activities. The BYC, in common with other youth councils in member states, enjoys that support. Understandably, it jealously guards its independence and the mandate that it receives from its member organisations. Her Majesty's Government welcome the valuable work of the British Youth Council in promoting the active citizenship of young people, a role which in my view your Lordships have rightly stressed during this evening's debate.

Therefore, I believe it is right that, as part of the scheme of grants to national voluntary youth organisations, my right honourable and honourable friends in the Department for Education have awarded the BYC grants amounting to £161,585 for three years to the financial year 1995–96 for various purposes. The department has also provided a capital grant of £15,000 towards the refurbishment of the BYC headquarters.

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Viscount. But does he not accept that the funding of which he has just been speaking is specifically directed to projects designed by the Department for Education and that it cannot be used for core funding —for instance, for providing staff for international activities?

Viscount Cranborne

Yes, my Lords. I hope that I made it clear to your Lordships that this funding was provided with a view to helping the national, as opposed to the international activities, of the BYC.

Therefore, I believe I can assure your Lordships that the phasing out of the government's funding for the BYC's international work in no way implies withdrawal of the government's approval of what it does, particularly domestically. I am glad that both the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, recognised that there was an element of phasing in that withdrawal.

The BYC has itself described its international work as an extension of its work at the national level. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Hayter, in particular referred to that relationship. Her Majesty's Government are indeed well aware of the range of activities which the BYC undertakes on behalf of its members in the international field, which again was referred to by a number of speakers this evening, in particular by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby. We recognise that the BYC has a role to play in representing its membership in the youth fora of the EC and the Council of Europe.

As I said a moment ago—and perhaps I may quote my noble friend Lady Hooper—things do not stand still. The European Commission has recently proposed a new and considerably enlarged phase of the Youth for Europe programme, which is one of its major programmes for young people. At the moment the Government are taking part in negotiations referring to that particular programme and its increased funding. When the extent and scope of that programme become clearer, which will probably be later this year, the Government, in the form of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education, plan to set in hand a review of the roles and responsibilities of the various agencies concerned, including the BYC, with a view to developing a new programme in order to avoid any unnecessary and wasteful duplication of effort, particularly when, as I am sure noble Lords are aware, there are a number of other agencies concerned with work in this field. At least in part that addresses the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, who asked: why this cut?

The BYC is aware of the proposed review and I understand that it has welcomed it. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, can confirm that that is true. As I understand it, the review will explore the form of relationship which may be most appropriate between the Government and the BYC, including funding. I understand that the BYC, like the Government, recognises that its financial relationship with the Government now needs to be reviewed. In that context I believe that the initiative of the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, is particularly timely. The views of so many of your Lordships with experience in this field will be taken into account in the course of the review.

My impression is that the relationship between the Government and the BYC is extremely good. That impression has been echoed in what many of your Lordships have said. I believe that at a recent meeting with the BYC leadership it was clear that all concerned intended to work together co-operatively and constructively in the future, particularly in the context of the review to which I have just referred.

I should like once again to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, for providing the opportunity for what has proved to be a most timely and useful debate. As usual, your Lordships' concern and appreciation have been eloquently and knowledgeably expressed. I hope that in at least some small measure your Lordships have been reassured that the Government most certainly continue to value and support the work of the British Youth Council. However, that does not mean that the relationship must remain set in aspic, unresponsive to the changes in the world which the BYC rightly aims to continue to serve.