HL Deb 15 December 1994 vol 559 cc1371-3
Viscount Cranbome

My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to explain the Motion. As your Lordships will be aware, its purpose is to allow us to take the Committee and remaining stages of the European Communities (Finance) Bill on Tuesday, 10th January, following the Second Reading debate on the previous day.

That course has been agreed through the usual channels in recognition of the very strong interest in the Bill which has been expressed in various quarters of your Lordships' House and of the importance of the matters at issue. I believe that that importance has been underlined in the public press of late.

Your Lordships will be aware that it is most exceptional for a Money Bill to be considered in Committee in your Lordships' House. I hope that your Lordships will agree that it is not a course that we should usually follow in respect of Money Bills. But I felt that, in view of the public interest and the interest in your Lordships' House—I believe that that has been endorsed by the usual channels —it is worth making an exception in this case. I hope that your Lordships will agree with that course of action.

Moved, that Standing Order 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with to enable the Committee and remaining stages of the European Communities (Finance) Bill to be taken on Tuesday, 10th January 1995.—(Viscount Cranborne).

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, will the noble Viscount confirm to the House that it is still Her Majesty's Government's intention to proceed further with this Bill at all in the light of the blackmailing activities of the Spanish Government, who have refused to agree to the enlargement of the membership of the Community unless we give way to Spain on the question of fishing rights in the Irish box and the Bristol Channel?

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, this is a Business Motion. We are not being invited to discuss the merits of the proposal. All I can say is that I agree entirely with what the noble Viscount the Leader of the House has suggested.

Lord Monkswell

My Lords, bearing in mind that this is a Business Motion, perhaps the noble Viscount will advise the House with regard to it. If amendments were made to the European Communities (Finance) Bill during the Committee stage, would it be possible for the House to delay consideration on Report and Third Reading to enable a period of reflection to take place?

I can quite understand that the business managers, and probably most of us, do not expect any amendments to be made in Committee. Therefore, the Motion before us would be perfectly sensible. But perhaps I may ask the Leader of the House whether a period of reflection would be possible if amendments were agreed by the House.

Earl Russell

My Lords, I wonder whether it might be helpful if the noble Viscount the Lord Privy Seal were to remind the House of the limitations of its legal powers in relation to Money Bills.

Lord Richard

My Lords, as I understand the Motion, it is purely a Business Motion in relation to the way in which the House wishes to handle this Bill. I do not propose to follow my noble friend Lord Bruce of Donington along the maritime ways down which he started to sail a few moments ago.

As I understand the position, what is being suggested in this Motion is very simple; namely, that Second Reading should take place on Monday and that all the remaining stages of the Bill should then take place on Tuesday, 10th January. If my noble friend Lord Monkswell wants a period of reflection, that might more properly take place in advance of the Committee stage rather than after it has taken place.

Personally, I should not be in favour of doing anything other than that which is proposed in the Motion; namely, that the Bill be disposed of on 9th and 10th January of next year. Since I understand that that is what the noble Viscount the Lord Privy Seal proposes, on these Benches we support that.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch

My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Leader of the House for his explanation. Perhaps I may point out what may be a small difficulty, the way round which I am not sure has yet been found, which is that, were any amendments to be tabled for the Committee stage, they might not be available until the morning of the debate itself. If it were possible to have some system whereby draft amendments could be tabled in advance for the convenience of the House, perhaps all of your Lordships would be grateful.

Viscount Cranborne

My Lords, with the permission of your Lordships, the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, tempts me strangely to tread on the coat that he trailed but I shall take the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and eschew that option, if the noble Lord will forgive me. I am sure that we shall have an opportunity to have exchanges at other times on that subject, on which I disagree with him.

With regard to my noble friend Lord Pearson, I am sure that the learned Clerks will have heard what he said and that it would be open to my noble friend, or indeed other noble Lords, to proceed in the way in which he suggests.

I am particularly grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Harris and Lord Richard, for their support for the way in which we propose to proceed. I shall attempt to follow the advice of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, by reminding the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, that, so far as I understand it, when a Money Bill which has been certified by Madam Speaker as a Money Bill when it left the other place is presented in this House, it is automatic after a calendar month has elapsed, even if that Bill has not had the advantage of being debated in your Lordships' House, that it can move to Royal Assent without further reference to your Lordships' House. Therefore, the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, is advice which I suggest strongly the noble Lord, Lord Monkswell, should follow.

Therefore, I hope that your Lordships are agreeable to the course of action recommended by all the Front Benches in your Lordships' House among the established parties. I commend the Motion.

On Question, Motion agreed to.