HL Deb 06 December 1994 vol 559 cc824-6

2.40 p.m.

Lord Stodart of Leaston asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they are giving any advice to the director of passenger rail franchising with regard to ensuring the continuance of the overnight sleeper service between Scotland and London.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen)

My Lords, the Secretary of State's objectives, instructions and guidance to the franchising director issued earlier this year made clear that for the initial letting of franchises the specifications for passenger service requirements should be based on the level of services being provided by BR immediately prior to franchising, taking into account the existence of and justification for seasonal variations in service schedules.

Lord Stodart of Leaston

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for giving me the hope that, after I have enjoyed sleepless—I beg your pardon, "sleepfull" nights on the train for the past 40 years, it looks as though the service will continue. Perhaps I may ask my noble friend whether the director has been made aware of the advice given by my noble friend Lord Younger of Prestwick (who is the chairman of Scottish Industry Development) on the very grave effects that any diminution of the sleeper services would have on industry and tourism in Scotland? I also congratulate my noble friend on his Statement made about a week ago that the privatisation of the railways would lead to a better service for everyone.

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I hope that my noble friend was not right the first time with his remark about "sleeplessness". I accept that many noble Lords and many people outside the House value the sleeper services. However, they are subsidised, loss-making services and the franchising director will have a responsibility to examine that in the light of the service which is provided.

Lord Marsh

My Lords, can the Minister give an indication of the average occupancy per night of the service?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I believe that if one works out the figures, it comes to an average of about 64 passengers per train.

Lord Taylor of Gryfe

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the immense burden which has been placed upon the staff of British Rail as a result of bringing forward the privatisation of Railtrack? Is he aware that 14,000 separate franchise agreements have to be negotiated before the privatisation is implemented? Further, is there not a danger that essential services like the one mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Stodart, will be overlooked in the immense burden of administration that is now being put on the shoulders of British Rail?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I believe that the changes are necessary and that the new franchised railway will provide great benefits in terms of service and choice to its customers. I believe that the employees of British Rail will wish to participate in the reorganisation and to produce a better service.

Lord Parry

My Lords, does the Minister have any anxiety about the welfare of passengers on overnight trains who arrive at unattended stations, often outside towns or in areas of social difficulty?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an interesting point. I shall look into it to see whether public awareness has been brought to the problem which he suggests exists.

Lord Pearson of Rannoch

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the value of the sleeper services to the local social fabric in Scotland—that is, apart from the areas of industry and tourism mentioned by my noble friend Lord Stodart when he put the Question—is much greater than a simple calculation of their cost might imply? Will he further agree that that is particularly true of the West Highland line?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, those are the very considerations which the franchising director will have to take into account when coming to his judgment.

Lord Ewing of Kirkford

My Lords, if the Minister continually refers under "franchising" to an improvement in service, if the noble Lord, Lord Stodart of Leaston, sleeps all night between London and Edinburgh, what improvement in service will he notice?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, he might have further opportunities to sleep during the day.

Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove

My Lords, I understand that there are now only seven sleeper services in Britain: six to Scotland and one to Penzance. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, made an important point when he said that there was undoubtedly a fall-out to the community from the sleeper service. Will the Minister consider the possibility of "subsidiarity"—I believe that is the word—and allow ScotRail to make the decision and give it the responsibility for running the Scottish sleeper services? I think then the Minister would receive a most sympathetic hearing.

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I can confirm to the noble Lord that the point he raised at the end of his question as regards where responsibility for the sleeper services should lie, whether it is with the West Coast main line or with ScotRail, is currently being considered by the franchising director. Of course, the franchising director will take into account the considerations of social benefits which come from services which are less than commercially used.