HL Deb 28 October 1993 vol 549 cc952-62

4.25 p.m.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that, Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill, has consented to place her prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.

My Lords, the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill is intended to authorise the construction of a barrage and associated works across the estuary of the Rivers Taff and Ely. There is provision for the acquisition of land and the rights necessary to carry out this work. The Bill also establishes a suitable framework for operating the barrage so that the very important considerations of water quality, flooding, the protection of fish and management of the lake are carried out in an appropriate manner.

The Government believe that the barrage project and the development which will come in its wake are vitally important to the future of Cardiff. The former docklands area, with its underused and derelict land, will be transformed into a new and beautiful environment linked to the city centre.

I was greatly heartened by the speeches from both sides of your Lordships' House at the Second Reading debate last November. There is a general acceptance of the need to regenerate Cardiff Bay. Several of your Lordships spoke with great authority derived from first-hand experience about the area's needs and its potential. There is also general agreement in this House about the need to realise that potential to the full. The Government believe that this can be achieved only by a strategy which has, as its cornerstone, the barrage scheme enshrined in this Bill.

The Bill has enjoyed a wide measure of support in your Lordships' House. My noble friend Lord Crickhowell, who as Secretary of State for Wales originated the scheme, has continued to support it with vigour and eloquence. Without his original vision we would not be debating this important Bill today. Another former Secretary of State, my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gwydir, has given it his warmest support.

The noble Lord, Lord Callaghan of Cardiff, brought his wisdom and unrivalled local knowledge to our deliberations. Although the noble Lord, Lord Brooks of Tremorfa, was unable to be present at Second Reading, few can doubt the commitment he has brought to the redevelopment of Cardiff in his capacity as a councillor, and as deputy chairman of the development corporation since it was established in 1987. While the Bill has been in your Lordships' House, the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, has been in the lead on the Benches opposite. I should like to express my personal gratitude to the noble Lord who has with great courtesy provided me with the background to, and the intention of, his often complex amendments. I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Brabazon of Tara, and the Select Committee of this House which he chaired, as I am to all of your Lordships who have participated in this Bill.

I am sure that your Lordships would wish me to express our gratitude to all the officials and others who have worked long and arduously on the Bill over the past six years. The solution to the many obstacles could not have been achieved without their dedication and commitment.

The corporation's strategy has been subject to rigorous and detailed economic appraisal. This shows that, for all the very best economic reasons—jobs, homes and private sector investment—the barrage proposal is superior to the alternative redevelopment proposals which have been considered.

During the Second Reading debate the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, described the Bill as "contentious". Certainly, the Bill raises a number of very important issues about which local residents and organisations, those in another place and your Lordships have been understandably concerned. For their part, the Government have taken those issues very seriously. Our starting point has been to ensure protection for those affected. Throughout the Bill's passage, the Government have been happy to table amendments to meet local concerns and anxieties where there was a demonstrable case for doing so.

A major issue of local concern has been groundwater. The Bill contains a detailed and comprehensive scheme of protection. I would remind your Lordships that the protection scheme has been examined in detail by Select Committees on no fewer than four occasions. The scheme in its current form is the product of detailed consideration and scrutiny and I very much hope that the good residents of Cardiff will draw comfort from the attention which your Lordships and another place have given to it.

During the Second Reading debate, I indicated to your Lordships the Government's intention to amend the Bill to clarify the land drainage powers of local authorities to deal with saturated land. The effect is that local authorities will be able to act in respect of land saturated by changed groundwater levels in the same way as they are in respect of flooding. The wording of the amendment was fully agreed with the local authorities and published in the local press. Although the proposed amendment was open to petition in your Lordships' House, no one petitioned against it. The amendment, which was endorsed by a Select Committee of this House, appears at Clause 22 of the latest print of the Bill.

In addition to the protection scheme, the development corporation has been investigating the control of groundwater levels by means of dewatering wells. Dewatering would keep groundwater at existing levels by pumping. If such a system were to be implemented, the need to carry out remedial works would be significantly reduced or removed altogether. Disruption to householders would, therefore, be kept to an absolute minimum.

Following a feasibility study and pumping tests, the corporation is about to commission a detailed design. Dewatering can be achieved under existing legislation. Nevertheless, the Government have been considering safeguards so that, if dewatering commences, pumping will continue in a manner sufficient to avoid damage to property. We intend to achieve this by means of a direction to the development corporation under Section 138 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980. As I told this House in Committee on 13th October, my right honourable friend has given an undertaking to make such a direction if the development corporation proceeds with dewatering.

Finally, I should like to report progress on what is being done to provide compensation measures for birds displaced from the bay when the barrage is built. Your Lordships will recall from our recent deliberations that the Countryside Council for Wales and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds were closely involved in drawing up terms of reference for a study into the possibility of creating a major bird reserve on the Gwent Levels. The report was published last February. Copies of the executive summary are available in the Printed Paper Office.

The report recommends the creation of freshwater wetland habitats near the village of Redwick, to the south of Llanwern Steelworks, and saltwater lagoons at Goldcliff, just to the west of the Redwick site. The total area involved is some 285 hectares, compared with an area of 165 hectares of the existing feeding grounds in Cardiff Bay. It will cater for a greater variety of bird species than currently use the bay. The overall conclusion of the report is that the proposed wetland will be: of outstanding value for wintering and breeding wildfowl and for other rare or threatened bird species". Both the Countryside Council for Wales and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds were very closely involved in the development of the proposals. They remain active participants in the further development of the site. For their part, the Government have welcomed the proposals. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has indicated that the necessary funding will be made available for the establishment and running of the reserve, subject, of course, to planning permission and land acquisition. No powers are sought under this Bill for the setting up of the reserve. This can be achieved under existing legislation.

This is an important Bill. It opens up the prospect of a remarkable future for Cardiff. But the benefits will spread much further than the city itself. The surrounding communities will be able to take advantage of the many job opportunities, the new leisure and recreational facilities which will follow the construction of the barrage. I commend the Bill to your Lordships.

Moved, That the Bill be read a third time.—(Viscount St. Davids.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Viscount St. Davids.)

4.37 p.m.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, before the Bill finally passes through this House, I should like to thank my noble friend for his words about the Select Committee which considered the Bill. I add my thanks—and I hope those of the other Members of the Select Committee—to our Clerk, Mr. William Sleath, who was most helpful. Sadly he no longer works in the House of Lords, having gone to Brussels to pursue a new career there. He will be missed in this House.

As my noble friend said, this is the fourth Bill devoted to the scheme. Indeed, this Bill was given a Second Reading very nearly a year ago and the committee reported seven months ago. Therefore, even the progress of this fourth Bill has not been at lightning speed.

One feature of particular interest was that for the first time in consideration of such a Bill by your Lordships' Select Committee, we visited Cardiff, took evidence and sat in Cardiff itself. That was the first time that such a course had been taken by a Select Committee of your Lordships' Muse, and I believe that it was a good idea. I hope that it can be repeated as regards future Bills of this kind. It was valuable to the committee to be able to visit the site, which we did on two occasions—once before we started taking evidence and again at the end, when we could see some of the matters which had featured in the various petitions and the petitioners' evidence.

All members of the committee are extremely grateful to all those who took the time and trouble to show us around Cardiff. In certain cases, they showed us into their own homes. All that was extremely helpful in our consideration of the Bill.

Lord Moran

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the courtesy and patience with which he has dealt with the various points which have been raised.

The Cabinet has been meeting today and is reported to have been considering very substantial cuts in all parts of public expenditure. We all know that, in the light of the deficit, money is extraordinarily tight. Anyone who has been in touch with Ministers knows that they all make it clear that there is no money available for even the most deserving causes. There is little available for nurses and firemen. Many deserving projects are frozen and will remain unconsummated, like the removal of the scaffolding from the Albert Memorial.

Against that background, it is surely odd that this project, which so many people have regarded as unnecessary or undesirable, should go ahead at a substantial cost to public funds. The barrage is not linked to any immediately essential needs, such as power supplies. It will have a purely cosmetic effect designed to improve the investment climate in Cardiff—an essentially speculative objective.

As has been pointed out, the fact that this is the fourth Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill and that it has had such a long and tortuous progress through both Houses is an indication of the anxiety felt in so many quarters about the effects of the scheme, not least in. Cardiff itself because Cardiff City Council was among the objectors.

We have had a clear and helpful report from the last Select Committee which pointed out that, as the Bill was hybrid, it was unable to comment on the fundamental question of whether the barrage was needed at all. That is a pity but it is part of our procedures. 'The committee pointed out that great improvements have been made since the project was originally put forward, and: it is worth indicating that the committee noted that it is disappointing that it would take so long to clean up the rivers Taff and Ely. It hopes that that can be accelerated. That is a hope which I share.

Your Lordships' House and another place have discussed extremely fully all aspects of the project. I remain unhappy about the extinction by the Government of the whole of a site of special scientific interest. That is a thoroughly bad precedent on the part of a government who have often referred to SSSIs as the conservation jewels in the crown.

I said my say on wading birds on Report. I regret their passing and we must see what the Commission and perhaps the European Court say when a complaint made to them by conservation organisations is considered. I welcome the proposals for a new wetland reserve, of which the Minister spoke. That will provide some limited mitigation.

On water quality, we must hope that the NRA's agreement with the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation will be effective. But the fact is that considerable expense will have to be incurred in remedying the defects of the blocking of the flow of the rivers by the barrage: "vitox" oxygenating jets, water witches, scraping off the algae from the side of the lake, and so on. I wonder whether the lake will really be the attractive clean blue water envisaged by the promoters.

Baroness White

And in the advertisements!

Lord Moran

My Lords, things can easily go wrong with water quality. The other day I saw a report in the Barry and District News concerning an order by the Vale council requiring, Associated British Ports to clear up a problem which started three weeks ago in Barry docks. The council was serving legal notices requiring Associated British Ports to remove all the dead fish from the docks within 48 hours. The article continued to state that an NRA spokeswoman had said that about 10,000 fish had been, removed from the docks but attempts to pump oxygen back into the water had little effect". That is the sort of problem which can easily and swiftly arise. I hope that it will not arise in the bay.

So far as concerns migratory fish, substantial expenditure is now planned on a greatly improved fish pass. I hope that salmon and sewin sweeping in on the great Severn tides will be able to find the relatively small entrance. It would be sad if all the very good work that has been done to rehabilitate the Taff was undone by the construction of the barrage. Substantial expenditure will also be needed for the groundwater protection scheme about which the Minister spoke, for the possible sinking of dewatering wells to deal with the intractable problem of underground flooding and rising damp and, perhaps, to compensate those residents of Cardiff who may be adversely affected.

We shall see what happens. I hope that our doubts will prove unjustified and that the project will work as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, originally envisaged that it should. However, I must confess that I am not especially optimistic.

4.42 p.m.

Lord Crickhowell

My Lords, I believe that my noble friend Lord St. Davids reminded the House on Report that next month it would be six years since the legislation started on its way through Parliament. It is in fact a little over seven years since I first announced the setting up of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation and asked it to carry out the detailed studies which led to the legislation. Moreover, it is nearly eight years since the project was conceived in the Welsh Office. Therefore, no one can say that it is a project which has not had the most careful and detailed consideration. I am bound to say that when we set off down the road, I do not think that I realised just what an arduous pilgrimage it would prove to be.

I do not propose to comment at this stage about the views and efforts of the relatively small group of Members of both Houses who felt very strongly about the issue and opposed the Bill. I am content that history should judge whether I was right or whether in fact they were.

I should like to take the opportunity to thank many people who have ensured that the Bill has reached this stage and that the barrage will now be built. My noble friend Lord St. Davids has already referred to some of them. I am especially grateful for the support and kind words said at each stage by the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, whose knowledge of the area, of its people and of its needs is unrivalled. I should also like to express my appreciation for the indefatigable work of the noble Lord, Lord Brooks of Tremorfa, both in local government and in the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation. I believe that it is also appropriate to thank the chairman of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation and his staff. They have been carrying on with a great deal of planning and preparatory work, and other development, throughout the passage of the Bill. Indeed, they have already gone a long way towards transforming the environment of Cardiff for the better.

I confess that I have watched and listened with admiration, and sometimes with a certain sense of frustration, to my noble friend—if I may call him that—Lord Moran. He has a tremendous reputation for his concern for the environment and has raised point after point in debate after debate. I think that today was the first occasion during the long passage of the Bill that he has really put himself forward as the principal defender of the public purse. He has made a tremendous effort. He has sought to defend the mud and the estuary which was, incidentally, largely man made and the result of the construction of the docks 100 years or so ago. The estuary, like Ephesus and one or two other ancient cities, is likely largely to silt up now that the area is no longer dredged. Therefore, in any event it will probably not have its character as a feeding ground for Dunlin and Redshank in 20 or 30 years' time. However, it has been his defence of environmental quality which we respect. I am sure that the noble Lord is as pleased as I am that there is likely to be an important wetland development on the Gwent Levels.

I should like to thank my successors in the Welsh Office and Ministers in both Houses, including my noble friend Lord St. Davids, who have carried the Bill to this point. I should also like to thank the Members of the Select Committees who also laboured long and hard. In conclusion, perhaps I should just outline why I believe the Bill is such an important measure. First, I believe that the barrage will be a crucial factor in the successful completion of what I believe will be one of the greatest pieces of urban redevelopment that is likely to take place in this country—or, indeed, has taken place in the country—for a very long time. It has been a very carefully planned piece of redevelopment. Much has already been done and a great deal of the infrastructure has gone in. I believe that the barrage will change the scale of what can be achieved. If we look back on civilisations of an earlier era I think we very much make our judgments based on the quality of their cities. I really do believe that the barrage will enable us to create a city in Cardiff of which, not just in Wales but throughout Britain, we can be truly proud.

The second reason why I believe the measure is so important is because of the important contribution that I believe it will make to the social and economic redevelopment of the area. Anyone who visited the site when we set out on the task and saw the urban wasteland that existed in south Cardiff, and anyone who knows the history of social suffering and economic decline that has been the story of Wales since the First World War, will recognise the importance of any major project which can help in the crucial task of transforming not just the social and economic life of Cardiff but of the whole of South Wales and of the South Wales valleys in particular. I have no doubt that the project will achieve that aim.

The project comes at a crucial moment when a wonderful transformation is already taking place in Wales as regards its economic condition and its morale. We can now look forward with great confidence to the future—a confidence that we simply could not have had at almost any time during the past 60 or 70 years.

It is a happy coincidence that within the next two or three weeks I hope that those of us who have been involved in this matter will be able to announce the international competition for the design of an opera house to stand on the waterside in Cardiff Bay. Incidentally, if it is built for the millennium, it will be the first major full-scale opera house to be built in this country since Covent Garden. That will be a happy way in which to celebrate the millennium.

The third reason why I believe the project is so important—this may perhaps come as a surprise to the noble Lord, Lord Moran—is that I consider it of huge environmental importance. Of course in considering the environment one can never isolate one particular factor. One may lose something; but one may gain something else. It was pointed out at an earlier stage of the Bill (I believe by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury) that we may be losing the feeding grounds of some waders but we shall be creating in the hay a wetland habitat which I believe will attract birds in large numbers—birds on their migratory passage and also birds wishing to winter in the bay. I should not be surprised if the area within the bay itself, and also the new area that will be created, begins to resemble Slimbridge.

It is not simply for the reasons that I have given or because of my belief that the development will clear up the urban dereliction that I consider the project to be of such huge environmental importance. The British Government are on the point of having to make their case as regards sustainability as a consequence of Rio. The greatest single threat to the environment of this country is the erosion and continual development of our countryside. There are fewer green fields, woods and hills as housing, roads and supermarkets spread across some of our most beautiful countryside. It is imperative that we concentrate building on the often derelict and empty centres of our once great cities and where industrial plants stood in the past. Those sites are often empty nowadays. That imperative extends far beyond South Wales.

One of the jewels of South Wales is the Vale of Glamorgan. However, it is gravely threatened as the population spreads out. The development we are discussing will help to bring people back into the city to live, work and play in a vibrant community. It will therefore ease the pressure on the countryside and make an enormous environmental contribution, complying entirely with the priorities of sustainability. The project has enormous environmental significance. I conclude on that note. I thank those who have enabled us to reach this stage and I wish all who have the job of seeing this great engineering project through to completion every good fortune.

4.54 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, we have listened to some very fine speeches today. After seven long years of consideration, debate and consultation a Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill reaches its closing parliamentary stages. We are reminded that this is the fourth version of a Bill relating to the project. It is an immense improvement on its predecessors. We thank the many people who fought long and hard to improve the legislation which was first presented to Parliament. One lesson to be learnt from the tortuous parliamentary journey of the legislation is that a project of this importance, magnitude and complexity should not be handled by private legislation and should not be launched until all of the necessary detailed homework has been completed.

I cannot pretend that this has been an easy Bill to handle from the Opposition Front Bench. It is not a consensus Bill. Ever since the Second Reading debate almost 12 months ago I have sought to the best of my ability to reflect the opinion and advice I received from my Front Bench colleagues on Welsh affairs in another place and to raise the major concerns expressed in Cardiff and in the valleys of the Taff and the Ely—both rivers flow into Cardiff Bay—and by organisations which believe that their interests may be adversely affected by the Bill. I am deeply sorry that this has caused irritation to my noble friend Lord Callaghan of Cardiff who is one of the most distinguished Members of your Lordships' House and whom lf hold in great respect. I have been made fully aware of the irritation I have caused to my noble friend Lord Brooks of Tremorfa. I appreciate that both noble Lords are convinced supporters of the Bill and that both have worked hard for the realisation of its objectives. However, this is still not a consensus Bihl.

I wish to thank the Select Committee, its chairman, members and clerk for the task they undertook. I am particularly grateful that the committee travelled to Cardiff to take evidence. I can assure the chairman, who is in the Chamber, that that was appreciated by the objectors. The committee's task was not an easy one, but I believe its recommendations have helped to make the Bill more acceptable to more people.

Since the Second Reading debate, and indeed since the publication of the report of the Select Committee there have been three major relevant developments which I wish to mention. First, we understand that the National Rivers Authority has recommended to the Department of the Environment that the impounded lake should be classified as sensitive waters. That is reassuring. I find it inconceivable that the Government would not be guided by that advice.

Secondly, the independent groundwater specialist adviser to the Secretary of State for Wales has advised that a dewatering system is feasible. The London solicitors, who have been acting for and advising Cardiff City Council, have seen a draft of the order under Section 138 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980 which the Welsh Office has in mind to issue in respect of a dewatering scheme. I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, for the letter he wrote to me about the proposed order under Section 138. The lawyers advise me that they are now reasonably satisfied with its terms. That again is immensely reassuring.

Thirdly, there is the judgment of the European Court of Justice in the Santonia Marshes case delivered on 2nd August which appears to have implications for the application of the wild birds directive to Cardiff Bay. The RSPB takes comfort from that judgment because, unlike t`e judgment in the Leybucht case by the same court, it applies to sites which have not been registered yet with the European Commission as sites of special scientific interest. It would be wrong of me to pursue that matter further at this stage.

I regret that none of the amendments that we tabled was acceptable to the Government and that we were not able to help the gardeners. However, I hope that the Government or the CBDC will bear in mind the anxieties which we expressed where they are relevant.

On behalf of the Official Opposition I thank all the bodies and individuals who sent us briefing material. In particular I must thank the RSPB and the London solicitors acting for Cardiff City Council. I must also thank an individual, but I shall not embarrass him by naming him. In addition, I have to thank my Front Bench colleagues in another place, and in particular Mr. Rhodri Morgan for his advice throughout. I should like to place on record that the briefings which I received from those sources were of the highest quality. It was noted that the Liberal Democrat Benches remained silent throughout the progress of the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Moran, who has a fine reputation as a great defender of rivers and their environment, fought valiantly. We appreciate his support. I must not embarrass my noble friend Lady White, by saying how much I and others appreciated her interventions. It has not gone unnoticed in Wales, as well as in this House, that on all issues which have a special significance for Wales my noble friend can always be relied upon to do her homework, to be in her place and to make a brief but notable contribution.

Turning to the Government Benches, I thank the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, for his patience and for the information which he gave me and was always ready to give me. This is the first Bill which has been entrusted to the care of the noble Viscount, but he impressed all of us with his loyalty to those who prepared his brief.

I believe that it is fair to say that the Government would not have introduced this legislation without the outstanding contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell. It has to be acknowledged that he, more than any other person, is the author of this Bill. The fact that this fourth Bill has at last reached its closing parliamentary stages must give him deep satisfaction.

The Bill gives the CBDC powers to construct a barrage across the estuaries of the Taff and Ely rivers. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Moran, implied, it has been for the Government to decide what degree of priority to give to the project, bearing in mind the substantial investment which will be necessary. If and when it is built, I accept that the barrage will be a historic development. It must be our hope that it will bring great economic benefit to the capital city of Cardiff and, indirectly, that the ripple effects will be felt in the Taff and Ely valleys.

5.4 p.m.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, there is little that I can add to the eloquent speech of my noble friend Lord Crickhowell. The Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill is now on the verge of leaving this House for another place. Indeed, it is almost on the verge of finding its way on to the statute book. It must be said that it has been a long and often arduous journey.

As my noble friend Lord Crickhowell said, Cardiff stands on the threshold of an exciting and prosperous future. That prosperity will be achieved only by the barrage scheme enshrined in this Bill. Of that the Government remain fully convinced. I am sure that in years to come people will marvel at the courage and vision required to achieve such a transformation. They will also note with approval the care which was taken to ensure that where anxieties were voiced workable solutions were put forward. In that way all the people of Cardiff should feel that they have a stake in creating and benefiting from its prosperity.

The parliamentary process is almost over. We should now start to turn the vision of a prosperous, self-confident and vibrant Cardiff into a reality. This Bill is about jobs, homes and opportunity: I commend it to your Lordships.

On Question, Bill passed, and returned to the Commons with amendments.