Bosnia (Hansard, 19 October 1993)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, no territorial changes will be acceptable to the United Kingdom and her partners except with the agreement of all the parties to the conflict. The Bosnian Government's rejection of the Geneva peace proposals represents a set-back. The Foreign Affairs Council in Luxembourg on 4th and 5th October agreed to explore ways to encourage the parties to return to the negotiating table while preserving the progress made in previous rounds of discussions.

§ Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Will she, first, accept our admiration for the work of British troops carrying out relief work in Bosnia at the present time? Will she also accept that many Members of the House feel a deep sense of shame at the failure of the European powers, including ourselves, to impede the progress of Serbian ethnic cleansing? Although my noble friend made reference to the Bosnian Government, is it not the Serbs in Bosnia who have been carrying out ethnic cleansing most effectively and damagingly? Further, will my noble friend give us the assurance that there will be no support from Her Majesty's Government for the lifting of sanctions against the Serbs until the process of ethnic cleansing has been substantially reversed?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his comment about British troops. Perhaps I may say that, in addition to those troops, our RAF Hercules aircraft have flown 827 sorties to Sarajevo, delivering over 11,000 tonnes of aid; and our ODA civilian operation has delivered more than 47,000 tonnes through 590 convoys. Therefore, there are more people, as well as our troops, to whom we owe a great tribute. Ethnic cleansing has not only been carried out by the Serbs, although they have probably done more than Moslems or Croatians. All ethnic cleansing must be brought to an end, and all our efforts will be directed towards trying to ensure not only that that happens but also that those in camps are freed and that, until they are freed, the ICRC has full access.
So far as concerns the lifting of sanctions, we have said that we will not lift sanctions until there is a resolution of the situation. I know that there have been comments about progressively lifting them, but only when a Bosnian and a total settlement is actually implemented.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as has been said, Bosnia is at present looking into the jaws of disaster? That disaster is made much more likely if it is true that the UNHCR winter programme will be launched with less than half the budget pledged by donor countries supplying it. Will the Minister confirm that the United Kingdom has paid its full quota? Further, can she tell us whether that is the case as regards the United States?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, that the United Kingdom has not only paid its full quota; indeed, we have done more than that in terms of aid to the people who are suffering. In my last discussion with Mrs. Ogata, the head of UNHCR, she told me that, although the money might not come forward immediately, she had hopes of gaining the majority of the support that she needs.
Every nation must realise that the people in Bosnia will now be far weaker this winter, which is unlikely to be as mild as the last one, and will need more help. In fact, 2.4 million people will be dependent upon the humanitarian help which is delivered by donors with the assistance of UNPROFOR.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that the unilateral recognition of the state of Croatia by Germany, without consultation with its European partners, has somewhat complicated the position as it is completely contrary to Article J.2.1 of Title V of the Maastricht. Treaty, the text of which was known at the time that Germany did so?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, if my memory serves me right, the German Government's decision was taken in November or December 1991. I believe that that was before even the paragraphs to which the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, referred were explicitly known to all and sundry. Whatever that decision, we cannot turn the clock back.
499 I have already said many times what I thought of it. We must move forward and resolve the situation in Bosnia and that is where our energies are devoted.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, does the Minister agree that President Clinton's recent statement in this regard shows a lack of understanding of our contribution in Bosnia? What steps have our Government taken to make the American public aware of the contribution that has been made by the British Government as regards relief supplies and in urging the futility of bombing exercises?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I have spoken on American television several times to try to put over the British case, as I know that the Prime Minister has done when he has been given that opportunity. Britain and the United States are agreed on the policy of trying to secure a negotiated settlement while sustaining the humanitarian relief effort. We are working together to try to promote this whatever some of the media might say.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, does my noble friend agree with the view of Dr. Otto von Habsburg who last month said at the Charles Stransky memorial lecture that the real danger of the Yugoslav situation for the future stability of central Europe is the combination of the assumption of responsibility by the United Nations with the continued failure to fulfil it?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I believe that such a wise comment as that from Otto von Habsburg warrants much deeper consideration than I can give it at the Dispatch Box at this minute. I would simply say that the assumption of responsibility might be considered by some in the United Nations as a requirement on them to take on this responsibility when I believe the Secretary-General was well aware of the great difficulty of delivering what member nations have demanded of it.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, is not the division of Bosnia into a series of ethnic Yugostans importing the principle of apartheid into Europe just at the time when it is being ended in South Africa? Is that not a disastrous model to set before the rest of the world? If we had listened to President Clinton's advice and armed the Bosnians so that they could resist the ethnic aggression of the Serbs, might not a peaceful settlement have been reached by now to the advantage of all communities in Bosnia?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I very much regret that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is one of the "if only" category of Members of your Lordships' House. We cannot change the past. There is no question of forcing Moslems to accept an agreement that they find unacceptable and I believe that there is no question among your Lordships but that arming the Bosnians would have fuelled the situation still further. I do not agree with the noble Lord's view and the Government do not agree with him. I have yet to find anyone in the United Nations who thinks that his proposal would have been a solution.

§ Lord Renfrew of Kaimsthorn
My Lords, what would be the attitude of Her Majesty's Government when the Serbs—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham)
My Lords, I hope that my noble friend will allow the noble Lord on the Cross Benches to speak.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, will the noble Baroness tell the House what is the situation today in Sarajevo and in Mostar? Does she agree that it is a disgrace that two outstanding European cities and their inhabitants can be destroyed with impunity?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, what has happened to both Sarajevo and Mostar and other lesser-known towns is a disgrace, but there is nothing that I can do, standing at this Box, until there is the willingness of all three parties to cease fighting and that is why the efforts of Lord Owen and Mr. Stoltenberg must be fully supported.

§ Lord Archer of Sandwell
My Lords, are we not moving into an era where the whole international community recognises a responsibility for relieving suffering and for maintaining legality, but where very few governments are prepared to pay the economic price of those protestations? What quantity of embargoed materials have been intercepted and confiscated? I fully echo her tribute to the part played by British forces in this matter, but do we not need a standing international police force which is not at the mercy of repeated defence cuts by individual countries?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I regret that without notice I cannot answer the first part of the noble and learned Lord's question. As regards the second part of his question, I do not believe that a standing force would ever be the right way to approach what are very different situations in different parts of the world. What is critical is immediate assessment and response according to that assessment, and that we do.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, does not my noble friend agree—

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I think that perhaps we ought to move on to the next Question.