HL Deb 23 November 1993 vol 550 cc132-4

2.53 p.m.

Lord Bruce of Donington asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will take steps to ensure that all proposals for European Community legislation are made available to Members of both Houses of Parliament on request in sufficient time prior to consideration by the Council of Ministers, or, where a Commission decision is sufficient, prior to enactment, to allow proper parliamentary scrutiny to take place.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Lord Henley)

My Lords, under existing scrutiny arrangements, all draft Community legislation is deposited in both Houses of Parliament within two working days of receipt in London. The Government will continue to press the Commission and the Council Secretariat to produce English language versions of documents as quickly as possible.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, that Answer is satisfactory as far as it goes. Is the Minister aware that one of the most important pieces of legislation sent to the UK from Brussels relates to the European budget? Is he aware that the preliminary draft budget for 1994, which involves the UK in a gross liability, after abatement, of over £6 billion, was discussed in the plenary session of the European Parliament on 24th May, with the exception of the budget for the Parliament, which was discussed on 22nd June? Yet it was not possible for the documents to be here in time for them to be examined adequately before the Recess. Is the Minister further aware that, even on a cursory, let alone a detailed, examination, the whole budget betrays a squandermania that is foreign to our traditions of control of expenditure?

Lord Henley

My Lords, the second part of the noble Lord's question has little to do with the Question on the Order Paper. As regards the first part of his question, I can only refer him to the letter that my noble friend Lord Caithness sent to him on 9th November this year, in which he made it clear that he was arranging in the future for copies of the overview of the 1994 budget to be deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. In future years the Government will ensure that the overview is made available to Parliament, provided that it is produced sufficiently in advance of the formal preliminary draft budget publication, which will be in mid-June. He also added that the 1994 preliminary draft budget which came out in mid-June was made available to both Houses on 2nd July of this year. My noble friend gave an assurance that that would be the case in the future.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, while there is no legitimate criticism of Her Majesty's Government's handling of this matter, it is disturbing that a great deal of European legislation does not reach Members of either House in this country until it has been practically enacted? Will Her Majesty's Government take a firm line with the Commission and insist that proposed legislation is circulated to this country and to other countries well in advance so that Parliament can consider whether the proposals are right or wrong?

Lord Henley

My Lords, my noble friend makes a valid point. That is why only yesterday my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer emphasised the importance of both Houses of Parliament and all other legislatures having sufficient time to scrutinise adequately all legislation. I can give my noble friend the assurance that we shall continue to press the Commission to make available to us all documents as soon as possible. We shall then make them available to both Houses of Parliament within two days.

Lord Richard

My Lords, is the Minister aware that he is wrong so far as concerns the Commission in this respect? If his noble friend is right in his criticism he should direct it to the Council of Ministers and not the Commission. As I understand the position, when there is a draft proposal by the Commission it goes to the Council of Ministers, and then it comes here. I also understand that, if the Council of Ministers then alters it, it is for the Council of Ministers to send it here. So if there is criticism that the documents are not getting here, it should be addressed to the right body; namely, the Council of Ministers, upon which representatives of Her Majesty's Government sit.

Lord Henley

My Lords, if I was wrong I apologise to the House. I was trying to make it clear that Her Majesty's Government believe that both Houses of Parliament should have adequate time to scrutinise the documents. We shall continue to press that those documents arrive with us to give adequate time for them to be scrutinised. We shall then make them available to both Houses of Parliament within two days of their receipt.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, the Minister has given a great many assurances, but he must be aware that hundreds of regulations and directives have been passed by the Council of Ministers without ever having been discussed in Parliament, and, indeed, in many cases without the regulations even having been seen by Parliament. Is not that the reason why we had the spectacle yesterday of the Chancellor of the Exchequer asking for more time to implement the water directive because the Government had underestimated the cost by no less than £8 billion? Had Parliament had the opportunity properly to discuss that directive, I feel sure that Parliament, which has to raise the money (I suppose the customers have to pay that), would have been alerted. As it is, we are faced with this enormous problem caused by lack of discussion by Parliament.

Lord Henley

My Lords, I do not accept the premise underlying the noble Lord's question. I believe that there is adequate scrutiny of all matters relating to Europe coming before this House. Obviously not every item of legislation has to be scrutinised by both Houses of Parliament. In the case of this House, all items go to the noble Lord's noble friend, the Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees, who will then make a sift as to which ones will go to which appropriate European sub-committee. Those sub-committees will then consider the matters, and then, if appropriate, and if the usual channels think it appropriate, they will come before this House for it to consider them. I believe that that is an adequate system of scrutiny for European legislation. This House and another place probably have as good a record as any legislature in the Community in terms of examining European legislation.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the Minister aware that, as regards important legislation such as the European Community budget, to which I have referred, it is most desirable that, if necessary, the Select Committee of this House examines the budget well in advance and is able to examine witnesses in support of some of the items? Will the Minister give the House an undertaking that in future and prior to the enactment of the European budget there will be adequate time for its contents to be considered by the Select Committee and to call witnesses in relation to the items which are contained in it?

Lord Henley

My Lords, I too accept the importance of the budget. However, what the noble Lord and I and others consider to be adequate might be somewhat different. All I can do is to repeat the assurances given by my noble friend Lord Caithness that in future these documents will be put in front of the House in adequate time to allow the House and the noble Lord to scrutinise them.