Group 4 (Hansard, 24 May 1993)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, difficulties were experienced in the early weeks of the court escort contract, some of which were outside the control of the contractor. We are satisfied that Group 4 has the capacity to meet its contracts with the Prison Service.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Is he prepared to consider the prison officers' recommendations, the anxiety felt at many levels, the spate of worrying escapes and the alarming deaths in prison? Is it not time to take stock and to decide whether Group 4 is responsible and answerable for what is happening in the Prison Service today?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, takes an extreme view. Group 4 had five prisoners escape from escort in the first two weeks. That compares, if I might say so, reasonably with the Prison Service. The whole purpose of contracting-out the work is to relieve the Prison Service and the police service from carrying out the functions that they are carrying out. That has resulted in a saving from which prisoners and others will benefit.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, was the employment of Group 4 part of a wider government policy to help relieve overcrowding in British prisons?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the policy is simple. It is that it is possible for the private service to do the work carried out at the moment by prison officers, whether in prison or on escort service, possibly cheaper, certainly better, and with any luck there will be a considerable improvement in the standards of those in prison. If that can be done at a cost which is the same or less than that provided by the Prison Service, it seems that everyone should be satisfied.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, the Minister said Group 4 compared favourably with the Prison Service. What are the figures for the Prison Service?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am sorry but I did not catch the end of the noble Lord's question.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, the Minister said that Group 4's figures compared fairly and favourably with those of the Prison Service. What are the figures for the Prison Service?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, there were 380 escapes from escorts by the police and the Prison Service. That amounts to 32 a week. Group 4 lost five in the first two weeks.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, are Group 4's personnel scrutinised or passed by any government agency such as the Home Office?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, yes. Those who tender for work, and those who take part in the work of Group 4, are vetted and given seven weeks' training, which brings them up to the standards required by the Government.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, who does the training?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, principally the trainers. I cannot give the noble Lord more detail than that.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, is not Group 4 also involved in the contract for the Wolds Prison? Is that benefiting the Prison Service?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, it is benefiting the Prison Service. As I explained earlier, there were admittedly two escapes from the Wolds Prison. The result of the Wolds Prison being administered by a private contractor is that the prisoners there have more time off, more education and more time out. I believe that they have better clothing and, possibly, also better food.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, is the Minister assured that when he gave the figure of 335, as I think it was, escaping from the Prison Service as against five from Group 4, he was comparing like with like, both so far as concerns the timescale and the degree of security of the prisoners involved?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, no, I was not comparing like with like. I was doing my best to answer the question that I was asked. I told the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, that there were 380 escapes per year from escorts carried out by the police and Prison Service, which is an average of 32 per week. I said that Group 4 lost five in the first two weeks. That covers only an area and not the whole country.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, does the Minister think, therefore, that the figures he quoted were remotely helpful to the House?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, frankly, I thought that they were extremely helpful. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, can do his own mathematics and algebra if he likes but I believe that I gave the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, the answer to the question that he asked.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, I understand that the chairman of the Conservative Party is also one of the directors of Group 4. First, is it wise for a senior politician to have a close relationship, such as a contractual relationship, with a government department? Secondly, does Group 4 benefit more from his experience as chairman of the Conservative Party than the Conservative Party benefits from his experience as a director of Group 4?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that question was slightly out of keeping with the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, who must be well aware that the chairman of the Conservative Party is not a Cabinet Minister. He, like anyone else, can have such directorships as he desires and are required. The information which he can give, or which he gathers, as a director of that or any other organisation must be a matter for the organisation and him. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, since Group 4 and the Conservative Party are down on their uppers is it not time that the chairman resigned?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, Group 4 is not down on its uppers; the Conservative Party is not down on its uppers. I can give the noble Lord the categorical assurance that, as far as I know, neither the Government nor any of their members have any intention, and will have any intention, of resigning 4 over Group 4. As I explained last week, there were several teething difficulties after the takeover but it is expected that those difficulties will be overcome.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, what sanctions are available against Group 4 for non-performance of the duties in its contract? The non-performance of duties includes not only escapes but the death of a prisoner in custody and allegations that prisoners have been kept in illegal leg shackles. What sanctions exist for non-performance and have any yet been applied?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the sanctions applicable to any contract are financial and ultimately there is the ability to cancel the contract. There was the death of a prisoner while in the custody of Group 4 and the matter is now being considered. A full inquiry is being held and it would be wrong for me to attribute blame, or anything else, until that is complete. The noble Lord also referred to leg straps. They were used on a couple of occasions when two prisoners were being particularly difficult and violent and had to be restrained. There is nothing in the Prison Service orders which prevents that.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, bearing in mind the replies which the Minister has given to the many questions which have been asked today, including the four issues which I raised, will he at least assure the House that it is not unreasonable to take stock of what has happened in the Prison Service since Group 4 has had responsibility?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, of course we are taking stock but we should not reach too many conclusions too quickly. On a number of occasions the Director-General of the Prison Service has seen representatives of Group 4 about these matters and the position is being tightened where possible. I must remind the House that the duties taken over covered seven counties, seven police forces, 72 magistrates' courts, 10 Crown Courts, 71 police stations and 20 prisons—

A noble Lord
Too many!

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, in retrospect that may be so but there were two alternatives; either the whole lot was taken over altogether or it was taken over in bits and pieces. It was considered best that the takeover should be undertaken in one fell swoop. It may be with hindsight that we should have done so less quickly but because there were difficulties at the start there is no reason to believe that the regime will not work. It will.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, as the takeover was done so widely and so quickly —as the Minister said —is it not a fact that women secretaries have been obliged to drive prison vehicles because Group 4 has been short of staff?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, there is nothing peculiar in people who are not prison or escort officers driving vehicles. That frequently occurs and there is nothing wrong with that.