HL Deb 19 May 1993 vol 545 cc1737-9

Lord Bruce of Donington asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether, before giving their approval to Section 1, Volume 2 of the EC Draft General Budget for 1993, relating to the European Parliament, they queried the projected expenditures under Articles 3705, 3706, 3708 and 3709 and Chapter 101, and whether they were satisfied with the explanations provided.

The Minister of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)

My Lords, we examine all expenditure contained in the Community budget. We did not raise any concerns on the expenditure to which the Question refers.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, is the Minister aware that expenditure here for 1993 amounts to something like £30 million to be expended on political groups within the European Parliament? That sum is not at all connected with the salaries and expenses of Members of Parliament, which are already running at a very high level. This is a matter for political groups under headings so wide that the money could be spent on almost anything. Is the noble Earl aware that the accounts are not audited by the Court of Auditors, which has no powers of interrogation, but that they are audited by accountants appointed by the groups themselves? Is the Minister aware that there is wide evidence to suggest that that amounts not to value for money, but money for the boys?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the noble Lord will know more about this subject than I because he was a beneficiary of these budget lines when he was in the assembly in the 1970s. Then he would have been able to interrogate the budget in detail. Yes, the sum is something over £20 million, but of course the parliament's budget is subject to the same constraints which apply to all Community spending in general.

Lord Wyatt of Weeford

My Lords, will the Government undertake, after ratification of Maastricht, to ensure that the newly beefed up Court of Auditors examines the cases of fraud in the headquarters of the European Commission itself, about which there have been many rumours?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I look forward to the support of the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt of Weeford, when we come to discussion on the Maastricht Treaty. As he will know, that treaty, when ratified, will strengthen the role and powers of the Court of Auditors. As regards fraud, I know that your Lordships have discussed that subject in great detail in the recent past and I know of the Government's commitment to try to eradicate it.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the Minister aware that those of us who were members of the European Parliament, elected by the other place to serve there, received nothing of what the Minister said we did receive? Therefore, will he withdraw the last part of his statement to my noble friend Lord Bruce of Donington? Will he also examine the case submitted by my noble friend?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I certainly would not impugn the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington. With the leave of the House, perhaps I may say that he is a friend of mine and that we have had many discussions on this and other issues. I was making the point that he would know more about this matter because these were budget lines which were agreed before we joined the European Community and would have been discussed during the time when the noble Lord was in the assembly.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, we are members of the Community. Does not my noble friend agree that it is pretty easy knowledge that the money referred to by the noble Lord is rather loosely distributed and that it is very difficult indeed, even for those of us who are members of that Community, to know exactly how it is spent and why it was given in the first place?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, that raises the wider and important point which' is that the Parliament, like the Council, is responsible for its own budgets unless it exceeds the agreements that were entered into in 1970 and the guidelines laid down in the treaty.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, does not the Minister agree that £20 million is an inordinate amount of money? Can the Minister tell the House how much is expended in the so-called "Short money" —assistance to political parties in both Houses of Parliament? That would be an interesting figure to have. Can he also say whether that amount is included in the £390 million a year which is expended on the European Parliament compared with only £125 million for both Houses of this Parliament?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the nearest figure that I could find that is comparable to the budget lines raised in the Question by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, is the £1.3 million in the 1993–94 budget provided by the taxpayer to the opposition parties.

Lord Richard

My Lords, can the noble Earl confirm one or two points so that the House can put this matter into perspective? As I understand it, the budget lines are not new. They have been in the budget for a long time. Will he confirm that every time a budget is proposed it is subjected to the most rigorous negotiations between the Parliament and the Council of Ministers? Finally, will he confirm that if one actually looks at the figures, comparing 1992 with 1993, one sees that the increase amounts to something like 3 per cent.—does it not—in the proposed budget for 1993 as compared with that for 1992? I hope that the House will forgive me if my question was rather long, but it seemed to me to be important to put this matter into some perspective.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the noble Lord is right. He confirms what I said earlier and I am grateful to him for that. These were budget lines that existed before we joined the Community. The overall increase in the Parliament's budget in 1993 was 6.9 per cent., which was below the maximum rate provided for in the treaty.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, will the noble Earl take it from me that the European Parliament does not subject the budget to the most rigorous scrutiny to which he referred? Indeed, he can verify that himself by reading through the proceedings of the European Parliament over the six months following the issue of the preliminary draft budget, which I have taken the precaution of doing. Will he give the House an undertaking that when it comes to the preliminary draft budget for 1994, which should by now be issued and in the hands of the Council, he will ensure that at least the British members of ECOFIN will subject that and other items to the utmost scrutiny?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the noble Lord is well acknowledged for doing an immense amount of research before asking questions in this House and I would not contradict him across the Floor on that point. However, it is for the Parliament to decide how best to meet the responsibilities placed upon it and to determine its own budget. As far as the 1994 preliminary draft budget is concerned, I can confirm from experience that those of us who have had the honour and privilege of serving on ECOFIN do, indeed, subject everything to the closest scrutiny.

Lord Wyatt of Weeford

My Lords, will the noble Earl take the trouble to read the Treaty of Maastricht? He will see that there are new powers for the Court of Auditors and that it will be able to examine cases of fraud in the EC headquarters. Will he ensure that it does?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I certainly do not disagree with the noble Lord. In fact, I confirm to him that there will be powers in the Maastricht Bill for strengthening the Court of Auditors, and I look forward to his support.

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