HL Deb 06 May 1993 vol 545 cc866-8

7.13 p.m.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time. I wish to utter one or two words of gratitude to my noble and learned friends the Minister of State and the Lord Advocate. They have supplied immense guidance and help as I have taken the Bill through your Lordships' House. I hasten to tell the House that it is not only in celebration of your Lordships passing the Bill that tonight in this House I am carrying a permitted item of apparel for the first time in 30 years.

I wish also to thank the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay, and my noble neighbour, Lord Mackie of Benshie, for the constructive help they have given during the Bill's passage through this House. Your Lordships will be aware that the Bill began its career in another place at the behest of my honourable friend the Member for Ayr. However, I wish to convey my thanks and those of the Government and all who have been involved with the Bill to the honourable Member for Dumbarton. He carried out a great deal of work and research and gave support in particular as regards the penalty for carrying weapons at night or in places where an offence could be committed. The Bill attempts to remedy an evil which has blighted some parts of Scotland at some times in the year.

Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(Lord Lyell.)

Lord Macaulay of Bragar

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, and the Government on bringing the Bill before your Lordships' House. Two Members of your Lordships' House are suitably armed and excluded, although the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, is hiding down his stocking whatever dirk he may have. No doubt he will produce it—indeed, it is a formidable weapon.

The effect of the Bill will be seen in due course. The use of knives in causing fatal injuries to young people in particular had to be examined in regard to Scotland and must be examined in regard to England and Wales. As I said on Second Reading, the use of weapons is not peculiar to Scotland but happens throughout the country.

The operation of the Bill, with its powers of stop and search, must be carefully monitored and, if necessary, controlled by legislation. The police castigated the Bill at their annual conference last week. I cannot remember the exact phrase: it was argued that the Bill was a useless piece of legislation. That is an inappropriate comment for police officers to make.

I trust that the police will operate within the spirit of the Act and will not use it as a licence for the random searching of people, in particular young people going to discos and so forth and stopping them for no reason. That merely sets up an anti-social attitude in young people.

Although we do not have the same powers as those given to the English under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser, will give guidance to the police in Scotland indicating that records should be kept of all cases where young people are stopped and searched. The records must set out why they were stopped and the result so that in due course an analysis can be made of how the Bill is working.

We on this side of the House pointed out at Second Reading that if the Bill closes a gap in the 1953 Act that is to the benefit of the community. But it must not be abused by the authorities, in particular the police. We shall keep a close eye on what happens when the Bill becomes law. It has the support of this side of the House.

The Earl of Erroll

My Lords, the Bill is a sensible measure so long as those of Scots descent can wear traditional garb and traditional accoutrements such as I am wearing tonight. The provisions must be applied for sensible purposes. Tonight the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, and I are off to help to raise money for Scottish charities. Such activities, rather than causing aggro down the local disco, are sensible. It is only right that the police should have the powers to sort out people of evil intent. That must be done and the police must be given the proper powers.

The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Fraser of Carmyllie)

My Lords, on behalf of the Government I thank my noble friend Lord Lyell for steering the Bill through your Lordships' House. I congratulate him on the efficient and courteous manner in which he has done so. I looked at the provisions of the Bill, and in particular Clause 1(5) (c), and appreciated the desirability of the exception which is permitted for the carrying of a sharp instrument as part of any national costume. I hope that the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, and my noble friend have checked that a comparable provision exists south of the Border before they venture beyond the precincts of your Lordships' House.

We owe my noble friend Lord Lye11 a debt of gratitude for agreeing to take the Bill through the House. I too thank the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay, for supporting the Bill and for allowing it to proceed both quickly and unhindered. He will appreciate that there is a real anxiety in Scotland that the power and the offence should be available to the police. The noble Lord expressed reservations about the Bill at previous stages and again this evening but I am glad that he has restricted himself to expressing those worries and indicating what he believes the police should do as regards the new offence which is available to be applied.

I believe that once enacted—and I trust that that will be very shortly—the provisions of the Bill will enable the authorities to tackle knife-related crime more effectively than in the past. I was pleased to note that in Strathclyde knife-related crime has fallen by over 25 per cent. in the first three months of the year. The Strathclyde police force, which has executed Operation Blade with great skill, must take much of the credit for that. I believe that the Bill will enable the Strathclyde and other police forces and the courts to crack down even more effectively on indiscriminate knife carrying and to drive that menace from the streets of Scotland.

I noted what the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay, said about some comments by police officers in Scotland. Frankly, I do not believe that they had seen a full draft of the Bill and did not appreciate what it contained. Now that the Bill has completed its passage through this House, they will be in a position to see it in its final form. Once they have seen it, I trust that they will appreciate that this will be a powerful weapon in their armoury for fighting crime in Scotland. With my repeated thanks I commend the Bill to the House.

On Question, Bill read a third time, and passed.

[The Sitting was suspended from 7.22 p.m. to 8.10 P.m.]