HL Deb 30 March 1993 vol 544 cc716-8

2.40 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:

What has been the cost to date of the attempted implementation of the War Crimes Act 1991; what is the estimated cost for the financial year 1993–94; and how many prosecutions under the Act have been started.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the costs of the implementation of the War Crimes Act are so far estimated at £3.39 million. A provision of £10.6 million has been made for the financial year 1993–94 but costs are dependent on the outcome of the investigations and proceedings. No prosecutions have as yet been started under the Act.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, does not my noble friend's Answer indicate that this matter has been an appalling waste of public money?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, Parliament decided that this course should be adopted and Parliament is responsible for it. Whether or not it is a waste of public money is a matter for individual interpretation.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, during the debates on the legislation the Government relied heavily on the view of the authors of the report that in spite of the passage of time prosecutions should go ahead. As further passage of time has elapsed, is that still the view of the authors of the report? Do not Ministers have some obligation to make inquiries and let us know?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I cannot possibly tell the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, what the view of the authors of the report is. All I can do is to remind the noble Lord what Parliament suggested. This matter was debated fully in both Houses on a number of occasions and Parliament in its wisdom decided that this was the course to be adopted. That is the reason why it has been adopted.

Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone

My Lords, will my noble friend care to hazard a guess as to who will win the race: the Great Reaper, who will eventually kill off all possible defendants, or the Government in starting prosecutions?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, it would not be appropriate for a Government Minister to enter into a lottery of that character.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, will the noble Earl confirm his Written Answer to me on 8th December that the Government have set aside £36.6 million for these prosecutions? Will he also confirm that two of the people being pursued would have been under 16 when these alleged crimes were committed and that a good many—23 of them—are over the age of 75? Is this money well spent unless we are to obtain some prosecutions soon?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, it is impossible to say how much money will be spent until it is known whether or not there will be any prosecutions. Clearly, if there are prosecutions the amount involved will be larger. Provision has been made on a three-year basis. As regards people who the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, says were under 16 at the time, one of the matters being investigated in each case is whether the person concerned was under that age.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, is it possible to detail where all that money is spent?

Lord Hutchinson of Lullington

My Lords, are the sums mentioned by the noble Earl—

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, asked a question. I am not sure that I heard it all: I think that he asked where the money was being spent. The answer is that in 1992–93 £1.36 million was spent on the police and £230,000 on the Crown Prosecution Service. In the estimates for 1993–94 £1.5 million is allocated for the police, £2.5 million for the Crown Prosecution Service, £0.9 million for the Lord Chancellor's Department and the courts, and £5.7 million for legal aid should that be required.

Lord Shaughnessy

My Lords, can the noble Earl say how many cases are being investigated under the Act at the moment compared with the original group of suspects identified in the Hetherington-Chalmers Report?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, 300 cases were identified by the Hetherington-Chalmers inquiry. A further 43 cases have been brought to the attention of the Metropolitan Police war crimes unit. All cases have been reviewed and currently 91 cases are under investigation.

Lord Braine of Wheatley

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that, having regard to the gravity of the crimes in question, justice delayed is justice denied?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, that is one of the issues about which people feel very strongly. Parliament has decided that this is the course to be adopted and that is why this action is being taken.

Lord Macaulay of Bragar

My Lords, can the noble Earl state how many police officers are presently involved in these inquiries? What are the ranks of those officers? Further, can he say in what countries their investigations are currently being carried out?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, there are 11 police officers and five civilians in the Metropolitan Police war crimes unit. I cannot tell the noble Lord the ranks of each of those police officers. Police officers and Crown Prosecution Service staff have travelled abroad to Russia, the Ukraine, Belarus, Latvia and Germany to see witnesses and visit archives. Police officers have also travelled to Poland, Israel, the United States, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

Lord Monson

My Lords, further to the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, does the noble Earl not agree that there is something inherently obscene in the idea of prosecuting people aged 65 for something they may or may not have done when only 15 years old?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, we have no statute of limitations in this country for crimes of murder and we cannot ignore evidence which has been or may be uncovered.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, is it not the case that despite the passage of time and the expense, some justice is due to the victims of the holocaust?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, that is a perfectly respectable view.