European Elections (Hansard, 29 March 1993)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, we are ready to discuss the European Parliament's resolution in the Council of Ministers. The Government are currently formulating proposals for accommodating six extra seats. When we have done so we shall consult with the opposition parties.

§ Lord Holme of Cheltenham
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that extremely encouraging and interesting reply. On previous occasions in this House I have heard him stonewall when replying to questions on the subject of proportional representation for European elections. Perhaps I may encourage him in that new open-mindedness on the part of the Government by reminding him that Article 138 of the European Community treaty, to which the UK is a signatory, commits us to a uniform electoral procedure. Is the Minister further aware, as I am sure he is, that in their proposals Mr. De Gucht and his colleagues in the European Parliament bend over backwards to try to accommodate British institutional conservatism on the issue? Finally, does he agree that failure on our part to move towards a common electoral system would not merely take us further from the heart of Europe but would also further widen the gap between the British people and European democratic institutions?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that Article 138 of the European Community treaty requires the European Parliament to draw up proposals for uniform electoral procedures. It is for the presidency to decide when the Council of Ministers will discuss the matter.
594 I am grateful to the noble Lord for saying that he thought that I was more open-minded, but I would not wish to encourage him too far about that. We, intend to discuss the matter with our European partners in the Council of Ministers. We have always taken the view that the first-past-the-post system is the best and that proportional representation is not a system: it depends on which of the 20 systems one desires to adopt. I do not believe that if 'we retain the first-past-the-post system it will take us away from the heart of Europe.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that if there is to be a uniform system, given the desire of the Italians to rid themselves of PR and the Mafia in one blow, it is more likely that Europe will opt for a single system, namely first-past-the-post?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I would not wish to equate the first-past-the-post system with the Mafia. Whether the Council of Ministers agrees in the end on a first-past-the-post system or proportional representation is a matter for the Council of Ministers. The obligation is to find a uniform electoral procedure. That system has yet to be found.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that we have been down this road before? We had direct elections in 1979 in order to bring ourselves into conformity with the remaining states of Europe, with the result that we had a system of direct elections here and in Ireland, whereas the remainder carried on exactly as before. Would it not be far better if her Majesty's Government were to relax on this issue and concentrate instead on seeking the verdict by referendum of the British people as to whether they want Maastricht at all?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord is remarkable in being able to bring up the subject of Maastricht on this Question about proportional representation. It has nothing to do with it.

§ Baroness Elles
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is the British Members of the European Parliament who have the closest connection with their electorate in this country? MEPs have direct links with the electorate in their regions. Other Members of the European Parliament do not have that direct link. Perhaps I may be allowed to tell the House that one MEP, a Frenchman, said that if he had three articles in Le Monde a year that was his only connection with his electorate.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lady Elles for making the case for the first-past-the-post system so clear. When people say that we are the only country not having proportional representation, it is interesting to note that Spain and Portugal have a list system in which the electorate choose parties rather than a member, Belgium has a list system of a different variety, Italy has a list system but now wants to revert to the first-past-the-post system, and France has a system in which one votes on two consecutive Sundays. There is no unanimity there at all.

§ Lord. Cockfield
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the present Socialist majority in the European Parliament is due entirely to the bizarre operation of the first-past-the-post system in the United Kingdom? Does he regard that as a good argument for the retention of the first-past-the-post system?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, having a Socialist majority is regrettable. But to use that as an argument for doing away with the first-past-the-post system is even more regrettable.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, the noble Earl told us that the Government are considering ways of accommodating the six additional seats allocated at the European Summit. Do they propose to accommodate those on the basis of single member constituencies? If so, should not the Boundary Commission be hard at work?

Earl Ferrers
Yes, my Lords. The idea is to redraw the lines of the European parliamentary boundaries. That can either be done by the Boundary Commission, which at the moment is tied up, or by a special body of people. If that is so we shall, of course, have consultations with all opposition parties.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, can the noble Earl tell us who the special body of people might be?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, not until the special body of people has been devised.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that that reply will cause considerable shock to democrats in this country? We have a system for devising boundaries in this country which is called the Boundary Commission.
Is there any truth in the rumours that the Government may not proceed with the six seats at all and, because of the difficulties of redrawing the boundaries on the first-past-the-post system, we may forgo those seats? Do the Government care to deny that?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I do not believe that there is any validity in the rumour that the noble Lord has just promulgated.

§ Lord Howie of Troon
My Lords, leaving aside the question of proportional representation, which is obviously much more sensible than the system we have here, will the Minister give us some guidance on how those six seats are to be divided among the various nations which make up the United Kingdom?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that would be for the advisory body to decide.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, can the noble Earl confirm that any alteration to the voting system for the European Parliament would have to be agreed by both Houses of the Westminster Parliament?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. Any alteration of this kind would require primary legislation, which would need the approval of both Houses of Parliament.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, can my noble friend tell us who Mr., Mrs. or Miss De Gucht is and by what right he or she makes recommendations that we should change our system of election?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, Mr. De Gucht—I hope that I have the correct pronunciation—is a Member of the European Parliament. He is a Belgian. He is a Liberal. He has made his proposition to the Council of Ministers and the Council of Ministers is going to discuss it.

§ Lord Holme of Cheltenham
My Lords, the noble Earl belies his chauvinism with his exquisite pronunciation of Mr. De Gucht's name, on which I congratulate him. If it is the Government's intention to consult with opposition parties, will they also consult the Conservative Members of the European Parliament, a large majority of whom favour a reform of the electoral system on these lines?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I wish to make the situation perfectly clear. We intend to redraw the parliamentary constituency boundaries for the European election before next July. How that is to be done in order to accommodate the six new additional places is a matter still to be discussed. It could be by the Boundary Commission; it could be by a special body.