HL Deb 15 June 1993 vol 546 cc1417-9

Lord Belhaven and Stenton gasked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will ask London Underground to withdraw their warning notices to travellers without tickets, in view of the fact that on many Underground stations tickets are either not available or difficult to obtain.

The Minister of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)

My Lords, no. During 1992–93, 99.93 per cent. of London Underground's stations had at least one ticket purchasing facility available.

Lord Belhaven and Stenton

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. It hardly falls within my personal experience, but perhaps that is just my own. Is he aware that on some stations when the ticket office is closed the machine will take exact money only and staff send passengers into the system with an instruction to pay at the end of their journey? Is he further aware that those people may be fined if they are caught by ticket inspectors? Does he agree that that is a totally unacceptable situation?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the responsibility is clearly on the customer to travel with a ticket. If one did not have the right change, one would be expected either to obtain change to the right value or to buy a ticket with the money available and pay the difference at the end of the journey. Alternatively, a member of staff who is unable to open the booking office could provide the passenger with a note which is stamped and signed, authorising travel and payment at the other end.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it might help if he were to take an occasional trip on London Underground? Would he then begin to appreciate that the problems to which his noble friend alluded are an everyday occurrence? Is it not fundamentally wrong that the financial pressures imposed on London Underground at the present time have led to substantial destaffing of stations and added to the anxieties felt by so many people, particularly women, about security for their person?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, the noble Lord must be a little more careful when he poses those sorts of questions. I travelled on the London Underground yesterday.

Lord Marlesford

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it is a sad reflection, whether on the Government or the management of London Underground, that at the time when the new automatic ticketing facilities were being installed on the London Underground system the stored value ticket, which is similar to the phone card or the card with which we can buy food in the canteen across the street, was well in use, particularly in Hong Kong? Is he aware that London Underground were putting in an already obsolete technology? Will he at least undertake to ask London Underground whether they see the merit of putting in more up-to-date technology, which would be much more convenient for passengers and save a great deal of time for the staff who sell the tickets and replace the change in the machines?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I found the facilities on London Underground considerably improved from the previous time that I travelled on it. It was a considerably more updated service.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, is the Minister aware that we are all now told that we are customers and not passengers? Does he agree that the word "customers" implies that those selling the services want to satisfy us? The way in which the noble Earl answered the Question suggested that travel was a favour that was being conferred upon us and that we ought to accommodate our convenience to that of the Underground. Is that compatible with being a customer and the attitude towards customers which I thought the Government were trying to encourage?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I am sure that nobody is treated as more of a customer than the noble Baroness when she travels on the Underground. It is precisely because of the service that London Underground wishes to provide that there is such a high percentage of the machinery working. That is improving and has improved considerably over recent years.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, since the noble Earl is now such a frequent traveller on London Underground, does he agree that he might do better if he were to travel before breakfast, before lunch and before dinner to learn a little about London Underground? Will he now address himself to the question that I posed about destaffing and the financial difficulties that London Underground is undergoing which have led directly to that situation?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, investment in London Underground is at its highest level. It has substantially improved. It is for London Underground to make the best use of the resources available to it.

Lord Belhaven and Stenton

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of the machines on stations which state "Exact money only" do not take 50p pieces? Can he ask the manager of London Underground what one is supposed to do in that situation?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I came across that exact problem yesterday, which is why I looked into the matter. The problem has been that a number of people have been fiddling by covering 10p pieces with silver paper to convert them into 50p pieces, which has fooled the machinery. I am glad to tell my noble friend that with modern research a new machine is being devised and installed which will take proper 50p pieces.

Back to