War Crimes Act 1991 (Hansard, 14 June 1993)

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I cannot anticipate when, or if, sufficient evidence will be available for a prosecution to be brought.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, while I thank the noble Viscount for his reply, it causes me a great 1215 deal of concern. The investigation has been ongoing for over two years. The Bill was passed over two years ago and still no prosecutions have been brought. Can the noble Viscount say how much money has been so far expended on the exercise? Also, can he say how many of the 93 investigations are likely to result in a realistic prosecution being brought? Finally, can he assure me that the investigations are secure and that no further information will be leaked to the press or elsewhere which may put at risk the people who are under investigation should they be prosecuted?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the costs in England and Wales were £2,600,000 to the end of 1992 and in Scotland, £620,000. In addition to the 300 cases identified by the Hetherington-Chalmers parliamentary inquiry, a further 43 cases have been brought to the attention of the Metropolitan Police war crimes unit. All the cases have been reviewed. Currently there are 72 cases under investigation in England, Wales and Scotland. There have been no arrests to date.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, several months ago a Scottish court found a resident of the United Kingdom to be a war criminal after investigating evidence in Eastern Europe in a defamation case. Does my noble friend agree that such matters would be more suitably dealt with under the 1991 Act?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, prosecutions are a matter for the prosecuting authorities to decide, when and if they wish to do so.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords is the Minister aware that, according to parliamentary replies, £3.9 million has already been spent and £10.6 million is provided for 1993–94? There are 21 staff involved, including 14 police officers, who have been examining cases for over two years. Why is there such slow progress?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, they are complicated cases. In order to see witnesses and to visit archives, police officers and Crown Prosecution Service staff have travelled to Russia, the Ukraine, Latvia and Germany and also to Poland, Israel, the United States of America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. The crimes happened a long time ago and the evidence is difficult to obtain. However, it is important to remember that Parliament passed the Act and it is the duty of the police to investigate.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, have not Ministers done enough to try to satisfy the demands of the other place, which were widely regarded in this House as extremely ill-advised?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the prosecution of alleged war criminals will be subject to the consent of the Attorney-General, who will be advised by the Director of Public Prosecutions. In Scotland, such decisions are for the Lord Advocate.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, does not my noble friend agree that it is an appalling waste of money when we are looking for cuts?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I have said before and say again to my noble friend that Parliament passed the Act and therefore it is the duty of the police to investigate.

Lord Mclntosh of Haringey
My Lords, does not the Minister agree with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor who, in response to a previous similar Question, said that the issue was not the cost but the likelihood of a successful prosecution? Is it not the case that the likelihood of a successful prosecution diminishes rather than increases as the years go by?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I cannot comment on the likelihood of a successful prosecution. Proceedings can only be instituted when there is sufficient and reliable evidence available to afford a reasonable prospect of conviction. Police inquiries are continuing. As yet, no investigation has reached the stage where such evidence has become available.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, can the Minister say how many suspects have died since we started this long drawn-out, expensive investigation?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, no. However, I repeat that 300 cases were identified, together with a further 43. All those cases have been reviewed and there are currently 72 cases under investigation.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, does my noble friend regard the public purse as being bottomless for this purpose? If so, are there other areas of government expenditure where the public purse is regarded as being bottomless?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, as I have said, where Parliament passes an Act it is the duty of the police to investigate.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, in the light of those replies, can the Minister give an assurance that expenditure under the Act will not be exempt from scrutiny in the current public spending round? Ministers constantly tell us that they are not afraid of unpopular decisions. I hope that they are not afraid of popular ones either.

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I believe that there is already a budget set for the expenditure on the matter.

Viscount Tonypandy
My Lords, in view of the fact that it is murder that is being investigated, is it not right to assume that the question of time has nothing whatever to do with it? As long as there was a murder committed, there should be action. Are not Her Majesty's Government or those responsible for making inquiries lagging behind other countries in Europe which are taking action and prosecuting?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I do not believe that we are lagging behind other countries in Europe or in the United States of America, Canada or Australia. However, a prosecution can only be instituted when there is sufficient and reliable evidence. I agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, that murder is a serious and awful allegation and must be investigated under the Act.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that in Australia, which has brought only one case under the Act, the jury took just one hour to throw it out? Is it not time for the whole matter to be reviewed to ensure that we are not throwing good money after bad?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I repeat that a prosecution can only be instituted when there is sufficient and reliable evidence. I hope that I have made that clear. I cannot answer for any other jurisdiction in any other country.