HL Deb 09 June 1993 vol 546 cc931-5

3.4 p.m.

The Chairman of Committees (Lord Ampthill)

My Lords, I beg to move that the fifth report from the Select Committee on House of Lords Offices be agreed to.

Moved, That the fifth report from the Select Committee (HL Paper 89) be agreed to.—(The Chairman of Committees.) Following is the report referred to:

  1. 1. CAR PARKING The Committee has approved new arrangements for car parking within the precincts of the House of Lords and nearby. The arrangements will be kept under review.
  2. 2. ACCRUALS ACCOUNTING, CAPITAL ACCOUNTING AND ASSET RECORDS The Committee has considered the appropriateness to the House of Lords of accruals accounting, capital accounting and asset records in addition to the cash-based accounting required under normal Government accounting conventions. The Committee has agreed—
    1. (a) that accruals accounting is appropriate for the Refreshment Department (where it is already in use), and cash accounts should be maintained for the other operations of the House;
    2. (b) that an asset register should be compiled for major assets; and
    3. (c) that fuller costs should be established for the running of the Refreshment Department, including the cost of capital equipment.
  3. 3. CHILDCARE VOUCHERS The Committee has given approval in principle to a scheme for the provision of Childcare Vouchers to subsidise childcare required to enable staff with children to work at the House of Lords. This scheme is intended to help the House to recruit and retain high-quality staff, to promote equality of opportunity between men and women, and to provide an effective childcare facility. The introduction of the scheme will 932 be preceded by a survey to assess the level of demand. The Committee's endorsement of the scheme is subject to the outcome of the survey.
  4. 4. STAFF OF BLACK ROD'S OFFICE The Committee has approved the following changes in the staffing of Black Rod's Office, recommended by the Clerk of the Parliaments on the basis of a report by the Staff Adviser—
    1. (a) the creation, for three years in the first instance, as recommended by the Staff Adviser, or longer if recruitment for so short a time proves difficult, of an additional post at Grade 7 in Black Rod's Office. It is proposed that recruitment to the post should be set in hand immediately; and that the employer should be the Corporate Officer of the House of Lords, in accordance with the Parliamentary Corporate Bodies Act 1992;
    2. (b) the abolition of the post of Assistant Superintendent;
    3. (C) the creation of a post of Principal Attendant to replace an Attendant post. This change will take place only after the abolition of the post of Assistant Superintendent.
  5. 5. APPOINTMENTS The Committee has been informed of the appointment of
    1. (a) Mr. C.H. Rogers as Internal Auditor, on a period appointment for five years;
    2. (b) Mr. G. Embleton as Deputy Establishment Officer, on secondment from the Ministry of Defence for three years;
    3. (c) Miss A. Archbold, partner in W.B. Gurney and Sons, as Deputy Shorthand Writer.

Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe

My Lords, I should like to thank the committee for its work, particularly the chairman, and to say how much I welcome paragraph 3, where approval in principle has been given to a scheme for the provision of childcare vouchers. That will assist staff who work in the House of Lords, who have children, to have them looked after. It is a progressive step.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and surprised that at last we are able to please him with one of the reports. We have previously not been so successful. I agree that it is a move in the right direction.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, I rise to emphasise a point that is made in paragraph 2 of the fifth report. My first comment deals with a purely technical matter and my second deals with a matter that will affect every Member of your Lordships' House who uses the refreshment and bar facilities. It is therefore not a matter in which we take only an academic interest.

In regard to the accounting matters dealt with in paragraph 2, I find it a little strange that accruals accounting is operated in the Refreshment Department, but that cash accounting is operated elsewhere. That does not make for good accounting practice and means that any balance sheet ultimately presented does not really disclose a true and fair view of the situation.

In regard to the asset register, it must be quite clear to your Lordships that the Refreshment Department, and indeed your Lordships, have the use of a number of substantial assets in this House, including some of the costly chairs upon which we recline or sit and the tables against which we may prop either ourselves, our elbows or both. Those items can be extremely expensive.

I would infer from paragraph 2(a) of the fifth report that there is no asset register at the moment. 1 find that a little surprising. Your Lordships' House has many valuable assets in its precincts. I should have thought that they would have been registered a long time ago, particularly in view of the fact that various administrations have always emphasised to us the necessity for the maintenance of strict accounting and "value for money".

Be that as it may, those are matters to which attention is being drawn. I have no doubt—it may take a number of years before the arrangements materialise—that a proper accounting basis will be adopted. Those are the technical points that I wish to raise.

Another matter that involves every Member of this House is seen by comparing what is said in paragraph 2(a) with paragraph 2(b). Paragraph 2(a) intends to establish an asset register, which will contain items worth thousands of pounds. But here is the rub. Paragraph (c) says, that fuller costs should be established for the running of the Refreshment Department, including the cost of capital equipment". As any accountant or businessman knows perfectly well, that really means that if the report goes through, in the future there will be incorporated in the costs of the Refreshment Department a measure of depreciation per annum on the asset register that is established. In view of the fact that we may be sitting upon, leaning against or treading upon assets worth thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of pounds, it only takes a little imagination to realise that the annual depreciation that is envisaged will involve a substantial increase in all refreshment bills. And that is the real purpose of the change.

I am quite sure that the noble Lord realises that that does not deceive me and, indeed, other accountants in the House. I sincerely trust that he will now come clean and say that that is the real purpose —to make all future restaurant bills and the costs recorded contain a measure of depreciation on top of the other overhead costs that are incurred.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, as ever, for his interest in what the offices committee does. Before the anxiety of the House becomes too great, I shall deal with his final point.

It was at the request of his noble friend Lord Peston, who is anxious to put the Refreshment Department accounting on to a more sensible basis, that those matters were investigated. The noble Lord, Lord Peston, was absolutely right. Whether or not the fears expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, will prove justified is a matter he could take up with his noble friend. I doubt whether they will prove to be justified. It is good accounting practice.

Since Ibbs, this House has devoted itself to making sure that we are making the best possible use of our resources. The preparation of the asset register began as soon as responsibility for the Palace of Westminster ceased to be exercised by the Property Services Agency, about which I do not believe the noble Lord will wish me to say anything, either friendly or otherwise—it would be difficult for me to say otherwise.

We are now embarked upon a major project of discovering what exists within the Palace of Westminster. With regard to the Refreshment Department, which includes the kitchen equipment, a wider problem exists. The assets on which we sit, to which the noble Lord referred, and the tables on which we lean, are not contained in any inventory at this juncture. There is a complication, in as much as governments, both central and local, conduct their accounts in a manner with which the noble Lord is not familiar in his professional life. However, we are embarked on a huge project to make certain that the considerable assets for which we are responsible are used in the best possible ways.

I hope that the noble Lord's anxieties regarding the balance sheet will not exercise him too greatly. There is no balance sheet as such in the accepted sense of the term and there cannot be in the way to which he is of course accustomed. But we are doing our best and I hope that we are succeeding in bringing very quickly up to date the way in which we are accountable in this House.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his remarks. Perhaps I may pursue the matter a little further. Will he convey my anxieties to the noble Lord, Lord Peston, which I shall reinforce to him personally? When the committee is considering any change in the basis of determining fuller costs to Members of the House in the Refreshment Department, will he bear in mind that the Members of this House give their services free in the service of the community and in the service of the country, and that they would not expect any substantial change to be made to the present basis upon which they are charged?

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, is it not the case, however, in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, that the costing of our refreshment services is based more on variable costs rather than on fixed costs? As a member of both the committees, I am aware of no suggestion that fixed costs should be brought to bear any more than they have in the past.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, is absolutely correct. That is the right way to approach this point. I will of course do what the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, wants me to do, which is to talk to his noble friend. I look forward to seeing which of us has the most effect on his noble friend.

Lord Harmar-Nicholls

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, is on to a very real point here? If in future depreciation will be taken into account when deciding what prices will be—and it should be—it can either be met by raising prices or by having a subsidy to cover the extra. At this stage I do not think one would expect my noble friend to decide which that is likely to be. But it is just as well that at an early stage it should be known that this new procedure will mean extra money from somebody, whether it is the purchasers of food or the people who subsidise it.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is right. This is a point that the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington, has fully realised and is the reason he raised it. We shall take these matters very seriously into account. I beg to move.

On Question, Motion agreed to.