Bus and Coach Operators (Hansard, 23 July 1993)

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the protection of vulnerable passengers is a matter for the operators. The Bus and Coach Council code of conduct for bus and coach drivers pays particular attention to customer care, including the special needs of elderly and disabled people. It is up to the operators to ensure that their staff carry out their work in accordance with the code.

§ Lord Rix
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply, which is as expected. Is he aware of the origin of my Question? A young girl was turned off a bus recently, in the evening, for want of 2p, and was subsequently foully assaulted and then raped. 903 Furthermore, two people with learning disabilities in this area—namely, London and Reading—have also recently been subject to (shall we say?) discriminatory practices on the part of the bus crew. A young man was turned off a bus in London recently because he produced his pass which operated from 9 o'clock in the morning and he was on the bus at 8.30. He was thrown out into a neighbourhood with which he was totally unfamiliar. A young woman with—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Rix
Is the Minister aware that a young woman with learning disability in Reading was recently driven into the bus garage, the garage was locked up and she was left apparently overnight? Surely these instances—

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, perhaps I may interrupt the noble Lord. I know that he is very concerned about these matters, but he is extending the use of Parliamentary Questions to rather longer lengths than normal. If the noble Lord would be kind enough to put the question to which he seeks an answer from my noble friend as briefly as possible, I believe it would be with the approval of your Lordships.

§ Lord Rix
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl. I shall be as brief as possible. In view of these incidents and others, and with the advent of vulnerable people taking advantage of public transport as a result of the policy of care in the community, would it be advisable for the Government or the department at least to issue guidelines for the practice of bus crews around the country? Does he agree that common sense and common courtesy alone could be recommended?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, it was entirely because of the incidents to which the noble Lord refers, and other incidents which he did not mention, that I changed the Answer to give him the Answer I gave today. It was specifically because of that. I am sure that the whole House regrets the terrible incidents that have happened, and particularly those that have happened recently. That is why I said that it is up to the operators to ensure that their staff carry out their work in accordance with the code. That code has been very carefully drafted with the help of the department. If the Government were to issue a code, it would be almost identical to that which the Bus and Coach Council operates now.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the noble Lord, Lord Rix, has single-handedly done more for vulnerable and disabled people than perhaps the Government have collectively? Will the Minister indicate how many of the privatised bus services and coach companies have developed special standards of care and of service for particularly vulnerable passengers? Does he agree that it is high time that the Citizen's Charter was extended to people who are vulnerable in this sense and who have real grievances but who would now have to look to the courts in order to gain any redress, which is almost impossible?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I certainly join with the noble Lord in paying tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Rix. And I would go further —I know that the noble Lord, Lord Rix, will not mind. I pay tribute to what this House has done for disabled people and others. I remember from my own experience of health debates some of the work that this House has done. My noble friend Lord Renton has been particularly involved in that work. Some of the incidents to which the noble Lord, Lord Rix, referred have taken place on London buses recently. What is important is that the operators use the code of conduct and take the appropriate management measures to make certain that their operators abide by the code and the appropriate action should they not abide by the code.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, following on from that answer, what redress is currently available to people who are vulnerable and who are put into this position? Does the Minister agree that to look to the courts at the present time is really quite absurd? Does he accept that there is a lack of available legal aid and that the sums of money available for redress are likely to be very small? Will he further accept that it is right that the privileges extended by the Citizen's Charter should be extended to cases such as this?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the Citizen's Charter is designed not so much for the private sector but for the public sector. That is why it affects London buses. What is more important is that there is the Citizen's Charter and it is for every operator to abide by the highest standards for all its passengers.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Highway Code is issued by a Secretary of State under a statutory power whereas the other code to which he referred is not issued by a Secretary of State? Will the Government consider enhancing the value of that code by ensuring that it is issued by a Minister responsible to Parliament?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I looked very carefully at that matter in preparation for the Question today. The Government have the overall responsibility, which is why the Highway Code is published by the department and the Secretary of State. But, as the noble Lord knows, we consult very closely with the Bus and Coach Council. We believe that it is more appropriate for them to operate in that way with our support. That does not necessarily mean that there will have to be regulations coming through Parliament whenever small changes are needed and improvements need to be made at short notice.

§ Lord Teviot
My Lords, may I develop the question asked by my noble friend Lord Renton? Could my noble friend consider providing that when a new driver takes his test he is examined on a form of code or asked some questions? Will he accept that a driver is trained to be a driver and is not necessarily trained in customer care, and that might be a good thing?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble friend has a point. That is why first of all there is a code of practice and secondly there is encouragement to 905 drivers to undertake assessments leading to a national vocational qualification, which is a nationally recognised standard. I perused some of those forms yesterday. They are quite detailed and very helpful for passenger care.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister confirm that the code issued by a Secretary of State in order to afford redress, as indeed was a reasonable suggestion made on both sides of the House, would have to be introduced by a clause in primary legislation?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I believe that my noble friend is right. That is why, when I answered my noble friend Lord Renton, I said that we believe that a code such as that operated by the Bus and Coach Council allows for more flexibility without regulations having to be made. It can therefore be adapted more quickly to needs when any lacuna is found.