HL Deb 08 July 1993 vol 547 cc1506-8

3.23 p.m

Lord Hylton asked Her Majesty's Government:

How many civilian casualties occurred in the United Nations protected areas of Sarajevo, Zepa, Gorazde and Srebrenica in the most recent month for which figures are available; and what progress is being made in finding the additional troops that the United Nations protection force requires to make protection effective.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)

My Lords, there are no definitive figures for casualties incurred in the UN protected areas in Bosnia, as estimates differ radically according to source. Of the 7,600 additional personnel which the UN Secretary General says are required to deter attacks against safe areas, to date 6,120 have been offered from Bangladesh, Pakistan, France and Malaysia.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her reply. In the present situation, where civilians are massacred and aid workers murdered, is it not essential that the United Nations takes under its own command the forces of the Bosnian Government? Would that not make possible, with the help of the existing UN forces and allied air cover, the protection of the innocent and the bringing to justice of war criminals?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey

My Lords, I do not find the noble Lord's proposal acceptable for two reasons. Impartiality is a basic tenet of UN peace keeping. Indigenous forces clearly could not be regarded as impartial by all, even if they were seeking to be so. I believe, too, that the forces now fighting against one another in Bosnia, because they have different objectives and from time to time have changing objectives, could not be expected to form a united force. It simply would not be reasonable to expect the UN to control local troops when the local commanders cannot even exercise that control at the present time.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, further to the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, what progress has been made with the idea of setting up a war crimes tribunal to try those responsible for the rape and murder of civilians? Does the Minister not agree that it would be necessary to establish a general framework of law within which such a tribunal might operate by extending the Fourth Geneva Convention to conflicts which are not between high contracting parties or even sovereign states but which would nevertheless allow the forces controlled by those entities to be tried in the jurisdiction of the high contracting parties?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey

My Lords, as regards the first part of the noble Lord's question, we believe that it is necessary to establish at the earliest time possible a mechanism to bring to justice the perpetrators of war crimes. The United Nations has asked for nominations for 11 judges and one prosecutor. As regards the second part of his question, the matter needs much further investigation. I understand why he asks the question but there are many differences of opinion about going down the route he suggests.

Lord Gisborough

My Lords, to what extent has publicity been given in the area to the fact that there will be war crimes trials in order to discourage people from behaving badly at this stage?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey

My Lords, there has been some local radio publicity but, given the situation as it is in Bosnia, it is extremely difficult to get regular publicity. Much, unfortunately, is rumour. However, I believe that once the tribunal is set up there will then be a special effort to get publicity on the all important issue of persuading people with evidence to come forward.

Baroness Blackstone

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that both Serb and Croat forces are obstructing humanitarian relief convoys and seizing part of their cargoes? If that is in fact happening, can she tell the House what the UN Security Council is doing to stop such outrageous action?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey

My Lords, I must tell the noble Baroness that it is not only Serb forces or Croatian forces but also Moslem forces in certain areas which have impeded the passage of humanitarian aid. We have in no sense given in to the threats made against those delivering aid. The UN Security Council is well seized of the matter. But imposing wishes in such a place as Bosnia at the present time is well nigh impossible: it happens only because of the very clever negotiation being carried out by UNPROFOR troops on the ground. We have to leave it to their good sense to try to get as much through as we possibly can. I note that the flow of humanitarian aid to Bosnia must be increased. That was part of the political declaration coming from the Tokyo G7 meeting.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, do the Government still believe that the application of sanctions by the Government and others under the aegis of the United Nations is effective? Do the Government believe that sanctions will bring this cruel war to an end?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey

My Lords, sanctions are undoubtedly hampering the Serbian re-supply of Bosnian Serbs. Further to that, there is now an annual inflation rate in Serbia of more than 225 per cent. The fact that now one has to provide 1 million dinars in Serbia for one deutschmark is significant evidence that sanctions are indeed working. Sanctions alone will never bring an end to the dispute. Only the parties to it, deciding to bring an end to the dispute, can bring that peace.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, would the noble Baroness care to comment on the reported remarks of the Foreign Secretary that if the parties in Bosnia cannot come to an agreement themselves, then the United Nations would perhaps have to withdraw its troops and leave them to fight it out among themselves, the Bosnian Moslems firstly being armed? Is that report correct? Can the noble Baroness say what timescale and in what terms the Foreign Secretary is thinking, if that report is true?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey

My Lords, I am quite certain that if the Foreign Secretary spoke as the report referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, indicates, he certainly had no timescale in mind. We have made it quite clear, as has the Secretary General of the UN and the UNHCR, that if there were to be any lifting of the arms embargo, that would force a withdrawal of UNPROFOR and the aid agencies. I do not believe that we should give up; we should do all we can to help the Owen-Stoltenberg work forward. That is what we are seeking to do, at the same time supplying humanitarian aid in the most difficult of conditions.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, the Minister mentioned peace keeping. Is that not a little premature, as there is no ceasefire? Does the noble Baroness agree that the Korean war provides a precedent for the suggestion that I made earlier?

Baroness Chalker of Wallasey

My Lords, we have always referred io UNPROFOR as the largest peacekeeping force ever deployed. There have been times when it has kept the peace. It has made the peace in many of the local ceasefires that it has negotiated over these long months. But I believe that Bosnia is unique. It does not bear comparison with any previous conflict. There is such a good preventive presence in many areas that we should go on trying to make and keep the peace.